Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2009 July 12

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July 12

MUSLIM RELIGION & SWINE FLU

I appreciate this may be a sensitive topic however i would like to ask a question with regard to Swine Flu and the Muslim Religion. What is the position/would be the postion of a Muslim contracting Swine Flu? this perticular type of Swine flu came from Pigs which are classed a certain way in the Muslim Religion - What are the implications of this? Are the people that become infected by the Swine flu virus classed as any diffrent due to the fact this being a Pig Virus? again my appologies for using a sensative topic but it is an interesting oneChromagnum (talk) 09:02, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

It is the pig that is unclean, and it should not be eaten by Muslims, the virus is just a disease that has "swine" in the name, but is a predominately human disease. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 09:13, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

I belive that is incorrect...The virus has mutated from pigs to infect Humans your idea that it has ""swine""in the title is the only link with a pig is wrong.Chromagnum (talk) 09:18, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

It now just a name. The virus may have come from pigs, but it's got nothing to do with them. Just like Spanish Flu had nothing to do with Spain (or France or any other name for the virus). The virus is independent of the host. - Jarry1250 ^{[ humourous – discuss ]} 09:27, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

So no, I don't think it has any religious implications for Muslims. - Jarry1250 ^{[ humourous – discuss ]} 09:31, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I think Jarry1250's right. The whole reason the family of influenza viruses is so widespread and successful is that it readily mutates, and various forms of it readily jump between species - there's swine flu, seal flu, avian flu, human flu, etc. At some point in its past, most any influenza virus you encounter may well have had an ancestor that infected pigs - it just so happens that the currently-noted one was more recently doing that. It's a virus that happens to have infected pigs and also infects humans, and that doesn't make it in any way analogous to the Muslim consuming an unclean animal. It's rather more analogous to breathing in some air that at some point was exhaled by a pig! ~ mazca ^talk 10:04, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

It is worth noting that there is of course a difference between how a Muslim with swine flu should be treated, and how they might be treated. In poorly educated countries, I wouldn't be surprised to see people react in a prejudiced way to a person that contracted swine flu. Similarly, Egypt has used the swine flu as an excuse to mass slaughter pigs (none of which were known to have the disease and are unlikely to be vector of transmission anyway), and the Afghan zoo apparently placed their one pig in solitary confinement for its own protection when news of the flu broke out. Dragons flight (talk) 10:21, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually - I heard on the radio yesterday that following international outrage (yes, PETA got involved), the sole Afghan pig is now back in his usual enclosure. SteveBaker (talk) 15:32, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

It is worth remembering that it was the cursed news media, who have little regard for the truth or accuracy, who coined the name 'swine flu'. (I read somewhere that none of the pigs in the US owned pig farm near where the original outbreak started suffered from this illness) any reasonably educated person with a sense of decency should promulgate the correct H1N1 designation. not so snappy but 100% more accurate. 86.4.186.150 (talk) 21:52, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

If it originated in swine, which I believe it did, then I see no problem with calling it swine flu, much the same as bird flu. If it discourages pork consumption, even for spurious reasons, that's all to the good. I do feel bad for the pigs in Egypt, but they didn't have much of a life ahead of them anyway. --Trovatore (talk) 22:28, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

I think that had more to do with the pigs being raised by poor Christians who fed them in trash dumps, and it was a convenient excuse to finally get rid of them. Adam Bishop (talk) 23:52, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it is as simple as it originating in pigs. As I understand it, it's a human virus, which has come into contact with a swine virus (which would not, itself, be able to be transmitted from human to human) and received a few genes from it. --Tango (talk) 02:41, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

The problem with the 'correct' H1N1 designation is that it isn't specific enough. 'Swine flu' isn't really specific enough either, except that if you say 'swine flu' in most current contexts, people will know what you mean. If you say 'H1N1', there are many contexts when you then have to explain which H1N1 you mean. Is it the version from 1918, is it the current one that is commonly known as 'Swine flu', is it another strain of H1N1 that is also circulating at the moment, etc. It's all very well trying to avoid people associating the flu with pigs in an unrealistic manner, but a vague name that is vague in likely current conversations isn't that useful. 86.140.144.220 (talk) 01:05, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, if H1N1 can be the 1918 one, then swine flu can just as easily be the 1976 one. --Trovatore (talk) 02:17, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. "The 2009 variety of H1N1" would seem the best name to me. Not very catchy in newspaper headlines, unfortunately. --Tango (talk) 02:41, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

True dat, hence "'Swine flu' isn't really specific enough either, except that..." It would be better if we had some completely unambiguous name that was shorter than "The 2009 variety of H1N1", but until then I find 'Swine flu' fits most of my needs better most of the time. I don't feel replacing it with 'H1N1' in all places is an improvement. 86.140.144.220 (talk) 04:02, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps the WHO should consider naming them a la hurricanes. --Sean 20:36, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok a poorly worded question i admit; Dragons flight had the right idea with regard to the question; i wanted to ask if there was a stigma attached to catching it; but i have the answer i needed much obliged; just for info wanted some opions as i am writing a paper for work on the subject214.13.64.7 (talk) 04:04, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

As a cabby i have seen the Afghan pig with my own eyes and it is safe and well hooray214.13.64.7 (talk) 04:05, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

A cabbie in Afghanistan, posting from an Arizona IP address! There's a story here. Not strictly in accordance with refdesk practices, but please share. --Trovatore (talk) 20:44, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok a cabby as in an addition to what was previously said and the server is in US doesnt mean i am there go figureChromagnum (talk) 05:41, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

doctor

whats the thig called what doctors sometimes have on their haeads, as seen is this cartoon [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.91.128 (talk) 11:03, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Head mirror. Deor (talk) 11:16, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.91.128 (talk) 11:22, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

I live in the UK. I've never seen one of these, except in kids' play sets and in TV/film productions. Are they still in use anywhere in the developed world? Our article doesn't say. --Dweller (talk) 13:45, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

From the article: "They are currently in less use than before, as they have been largely replaced by pen lights among general practitioners, and by fibreoptic headlamps among otolaryngologists." —Akrabbim^talk 19:42, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Becoming a salesperson

Is it possible to learn to be a salesman or woman, either in a shop, over the phone or in some other way, or is sales really a dark art that you're either born with or without? Other than wasting my own and employers' time by trying to pick it up on the job (and quickly getting fired) does anyone know how I could start? 86.142.67.44 (talk) 14:36, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure there are plenty of training courses for that - although I think it depends on precisely how (and what!) you are selling. Selling houses, used cars and dubious herbal v**gr* are very different from selling newspapers on a street corner or AT&T telephone agreements. Perhaps you could be a little more specific? SteveBaker (talk) 15:25, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

86 doesn't seem to want to fail and get fired and try again, but that's the way to become a good sales person. I wouldn't worry much about going through 6 jobs before you feel like you're "on your feet" in the profession — if the employers are essentially willing to train you, why not? It's no dark art. If you already consider yourself "good with people" then that helps a lot. If you're interested in finding out more without actually doing it, google "salesman biography -death" to look for memoirs of some great sales people. ("-death" is in there to prevent half the Google results to come back with Death of a Salesman.) Tempshill (talk) 15:40, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Learning to be a salesman may be possible over the phone, but learning to be a women may not be. As you speculate glumly, the latter is a dark art you are either born with or without (of course, such OR should be frowned upon in these hallowed pages of wisdooom. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 17:26, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

LOL :)) What I meant was a sales job, either in a shop (cars, mobile phones, computers etc) or telesales from a call centre (insurance etc). I think I'm good with people generally (I'm friendly and have been accused of being funny... ;), but I don't have any idea about the psychology of selling things, and I fear employers won't have much tolerance of beginners at the moment. If I can learn something about it beforehand though, I think I'd be fine. 86.142.67.44 (talk) 17:51, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Cockatoo beat me to the punch-line on that one. :) I recommend reading How to Win Friends and Influence People, which is ostensibly about how to get along but is also about how to be a salesman. It's a good starting point. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 17:54, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

It will most likely depend (initialy) on whether or not you believe in what you are selling. This will help a great deal. I used to sell products that I didn't care about and I hated having to try and convince people that they were worthy, valid items. It went against so many core feelings. Yet in another job, I sold something that I genuinely thought was a decent product and it felt right to try and convince people to part with their money. This obviously helped a great deal with my success rate.Popcorn II (talk) 18:55, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

[Some of the following has been rendered moot by intervening edits and edit conflicts, but I won't go to the additional extra trouble of rewriting it, only to risk another edit conflict. Life's too short. —— Shakescene (talk) 18:57, 12 July 2009 (UTC)]

Traditionally in the United States, beginning sales jobs that don't involve standing behind a counter or inside a shop were often paid on a straight-commission basis, meaning that the sales(wo)man got little or no compensation other than a set commission per sale. For income tax purposes, they were treated as self-employed independent contractors. (Being paid, after some time on the job, a salary or a salary plus commission was a sign of seniority and the employer's confidence in your competence and reliability.) So, under straight commission, the employer wouldn't lose very much (and might even gain a few extra sales) as untrained sales(wo)men either improved their skills or learned that they were unsuited to that particular line of sales, or to the profession as a whole.† And it's not unusual for salespeople to move around between different bosses and different lines of sales until they find the one which most suits their personality, preferences and skills. Even seasoned veteran sales(wo)men sometimes like to change jobs every few years to learn new things and to avoid going stale; a few rather cold-hearted employers prefer hiring energetic new blood to keeping their old staff.

† (There's always the incremental opportunity cost of uncompleted sales that might have been won by a better salesperson, but that assumes the purely-hypothetical availability of one more such salesperson than was in fact hired.)

I'm in the UK, and there's a minimum wage over here (at least for shop-based or call centre work) so commission-only might not be an option. Will look out for it though, cause I can see at a glance that most waged jobs call for experience. 86.142.67.44 (talk) 00:38, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

If you're financially and psychologically ready to take the risk of seeing your monthly pay depend totally upon the combination of skill, preparation and pure luck that sales involve, then an employer might be willing, even during a recession, to invest in your initial set-up and training. But you should avoid getting sucked into those Multi-level marketing businesses (not all of them) whose main revenue comes not from selling a product or service to consumers but from recruiting ever more sales staff.

By the way, Death of a Salesman by Arthur Miller is a play worth seeing or reading, partly for its insights into a salesman's psychology. Another great 20th-century play, The Iceman Cometh, by Eugene O'Neill, revolves around a salesman. The "darker" side of sales is reflected in Glengarry Glen Ross by David Mamet and (more light-heartedly) in the musical comedy The Music Man, by Meredith Willson. I know there are films and videos of The Iceman Cometh (with Lee Marvin) and Glengarry Glen Ross (with Jack Lemmon); I don't know about the other two works.

If you're interested in reading about sales from non-literary sources, Dale Carnegie's much-mocked How to Win Friends and Influence People, while not directly about sales, carries a lot of extremely sound practical advice. There are also a number of books, for whose value I cannot vouch (never having been any good at sales myself), by Zig Ziglar. —— Shakescene (talk) 18:57, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

I do not think reading the literary stuff is going to help. I used to be a salesman. You need textbooks about sales techniques. I highly recommend Selling To Win by Richard Denny. Tells you the know-how and how-to of sales. Written in the Uk but relevant in all countries. Most sales jobs are badly paid. Well-paid sales jobs are rare. Being employed by a big manufacturing company selling their expensive things to industry is better paid, the more expensive the product the better. 89.241.44.245 (talk) 19:11, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, and I know the basic wage would be low. If I actually do this (after some reading) it will be cause I believe I can earn a bonus! :) 86.142.67.44 (talk) 00:38, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

(Those literary references were more in the way of an aside than direct practical advice, but my post had too many indentations as it was). —— Shakescene (talk) 19:20, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

For a cheap introduction to sales try "The One Minute Sales Person". It doesn't contain any "magic secrets", but some general tips on getting sales. Take a look here [2] If you like the style you can pick up a used copy for about $4-5. If you don't want to try out your new-found skills on the job, try doing a yard-sale, church bazar, fleamarket or the like. Another way is to just go shopping and see what salespeople do and who succeeded how to make you buy something. For products you consider to be crappy think of some feature that you could honestly offer. (e.g. your customers couldn't afford the better quality ones, it's fashionable, they could waste their money on something worse.) If all else fails, what worked for me sometimes was "It's good for the economy." :-) from that angle build arguments why your customers would want to buy the stuff. If you find it difficult to do that on the spot, go watch TV and think how you would sell your product(s) to one of the characters in a supporting role. (You are less likely to meet someone like the main character, but supporting roles are usually cast like "ordinary people" so they're a good model for you.) 71.236.26.74 (talk) 21:29, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I think I'd really have trouble selling something I didn't believe in. I can think myself into others' shoes, but I just wouldn't be convincing if my entire pitch was lies. I'm too naive for this ;) 86.142.67.44 (talk) 00:38, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

What did I drink

When I was younger, my friend and I had heard that drinking a bottle of some Chinese elixer called Sa-wu-che would get you crazy stoned. As I recall the bottle said in crude English that a tablespoon a day would keep you healthy. It came in a glass bottle, cost five dollars and was a greenish-black color. The taste was awful. And as I best can recall it was called or pronounced 'Sah-wu-che'. And it did in fact get us crazy stoned. --67.85.117.190 (talk) 17:35, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

If you're asking where to get more, we're going to need to know where in the world you saw this. You mentioned dollars, so did you mean American dollars, Canadian dollars, or one of the several other nations that use dollars? Dismas|^(talk) 20:07, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

And is that the Chinese pronunciation or an Anglicised pronunciation from the romanised name? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 23:58, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

OK i know Ginsing can get you stoned if you drink lots of it [www.angelfire.com/id/croon/japan/china/ginseng.html]Maybe it was just coloured and sold as a exlixer 214.13.64.7 (talk) 04:12, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

If it weren't for the chinese name I would have guessed cough medicine with Codeine. -- 71.236.26.74 (talk) 21:48, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Importing Vanilla Coke

Does anyone know of a semi-reputable site that would let me import Diet Vanilla Coke (apparently now called Coca-Cola Vanilla) to the UK? I know there are companies that do this for less widely available drinks (like Irn-Bru). 94.168.184.16 (talk) 18:02, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

This site seems to usually carry it, but they're out at present. [3] The closest I could find otherwise was this German site [4] Importing the already imported beverage from there would make it prohibitively expensive. But here's an idea: just find a bottle of vanilla extract in the bakery isle at your grocery store and add a drop to plain diet coke. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 22:14, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Warning: Vanilla Coke tastes awful (YMMV). Back years ago, you could get a vanilla coke at a drugstore food counter, and as far as I know, it was put together there. They just used regular coke and a vanilla extract. It tasted good. What Coke puts into their Vanilla Coke doesn't even taste remotely like vanilla. And don't get me started on Lime Coke ... Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 18:36, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Majors: International Studies vs. Political Science & Near Eastern Studies

Hello! What is more marketable?: B.A. International Studies or B.A. Political Science & B.A. Near Eastern Studies? Thank You - Vikramkr (talk) 23:37, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Neither is much more marketable. Any relevent bachelor's degree will get you an interview with a prospective employer; and all that really matters is the interview. In this case, the two degrees are so closely related that there is not likely to be much of a difference in terms of resume weight. Pick the one whose course offerings will better prepare you for your future career, and don't worry so much about the name of the degree. --Jayron32.talk.say no to drama 00:51, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate your feedback, but based on your wording, I'm not sure if you were aware that I was talking about the second option being a double major (i.e. two degrees: one in POL and one in NES). Does this change the reality you described? Additionally, I left out that I will be minoring in Portuguese, regardless of which academic program I pursue. - Vikramkr (talk) 01:13, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Again, I'm not sure the double major makes a HUGE difference on paper. Your schooling is primarily about getting the education you need to perform your job well once you get it; your coursework (that is, the specific classes you take) will be the bigger factor in impressing prospective employers than the names or types of degrees you receive. They will look closer at your transcript than your degree. Furthermore, the name of your degree is basically a resume bullet point; and a resume serves ONLY one purpose, and that is to get you an interview. There is nothing else that such information can do to get you or lose you a job. Your coursework and grades will speak for themselves and that coupled with your performance in your interview will determine whether or not you land a desired job. Everything else is window dressing. So choose which major you want based on whether or not that major provides the needed coursework, not on whether the name of the major (or whether it is a double major or not) sounds better on paper. --Jayron32.talk.say no to drama 04:15, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Great, thanks so much for the advice! I really appreciate it. - Vikramkr (talk) 05:06, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Madoff had a degree in political science, but do you know anyone with a degree in international studies who has achieved anything? Do you? Quest09 (talk) 10:35, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Jody Williams, though "international relations" not "international studies". - BanyanTree 13:01, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

My strong advice is to do a degree in the subject that interests you the most. This will make your years in college much more bearable - it'll help you to ease into the habit of study - and it'll get you a better grade of degree at the end of the day. What a degree represents to an employer is a demonstration of your ability to learn - your ability to communicate what you've learned - and your ability to stick at a long term problem for years at a time. What precisely that degree is about matters a LOT less. Also, your degree is what gets you your FIRST job. What gets you your second job is mostly how well you did at your first one - and to a lesser extent, what your degree was like. What gets you your third job has nothing whatever to do with your degree - most HR people won't even read that far down the resume before deciding whether to interview you or not! Once you are at the face-to-face interview, your performance at the interview becomes the only thing that matters...and if you can talk with genuine enthusiasm for your chosen profession - that's worth a HUGE amount...hence the suggestion to do what interests you the most. SteveBaker (talk) 13:02, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

The only difference you might achieve with one or the other is to get a hit in an HR keyword search program used to screen applicant's resumes. They don't know/care where that word is, though. So if you apply for a job you can just throw in a phrase with "Near Eastern Studies" or "Political Science" somewhere like in "further interests" or "additional subjects" and bingo, the program is happy and your resume lands in the "look at" pile. From then on it will have to survive on merits. What is marketable today is also unlikely to still be marketable by the time you've gained your degree. As far as role models go IMHO someone like Madeleine Albright and even Condoleezza Rice might be better examples to follow than Madoff. In the end though, study something you enjoy and can envision spending the rest of your life doing. OR you're likely to spend a lot more time at earning money than on spending it. Very few jobs that you hate can pay enough to offset that. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 18:46, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

The two programs sound like very different things. If you are going to work in or with the Near East, then the second, on paper, sounds more appropriate. If you will be working generally with international affairs, but not specifically on the Near East, then the first seems more marketable. Again, on paper. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 23:07, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, this is perhaps a true difference. With an international studies degree you can work, say, in Latin American, Near East or African. Near East is more restricting.--Quest09 (talk) 11:18, 14 July 2009 (UTC)