User talk:Noonien Soong

I love treason but hate a traitor.

   Julius Caesar

Men willingly believe what they wish.

   Julius Caesar, De Bello Gallico

It is not these well-fed long-haired men that I fear, but the pale and the hungry-looking.

   Julius Caesar, from Plutarch, Lives

I am going to Spain to fight an army without a general, and thence to the East to fight a general without an army.

   Julius Caesar (100 BC - 44 BC), (attributed)

Noonien Soong (talk) 22:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Listen

I know you want you hold the view that Bosniaks are not Slavs based on their presence of Haplogroup I. A lot of people do not respect you and think you are a waste of time and space. But, out of the respect for truth and knowledge,I will take the time to explain to you things. You unfortunatley are being a little confused about the whole genetics. So:

South slavs, including Serbs, all Bosniasn, Sloevnes, Macedonians, bulgarians, etc: contain 4 or 5 major Y-DNA haplogroups. These are inherited from father to son, and can tell us about migrations from thousands of years ago. The groups are as follows:

I2: In the western Balkans this is the most prevalent. It is most prevalent in Herzegovians and Croats (not Bosniaks). It reached up to 60 % or whatever. This dates back to the last ice age in Europe, say 8, 000 years ago. This population sought refuge in the Balkans, and then repopulated much of eastern Europe. The I haplogroup of Germans and Swedes is I1, not I2. These people had different refuges place (in Spain) and migrated to different areas (northern Europe). So that is your first mistake. So Bosnians presence of I is due to the Paleolothic peoples in the Balkans, not an influx of Germans later. I2 is also present in Serbs, Macedonians, then less so in Bulgarians and very much less in Greeks, Albanians, etc. So it is very much confined to 'Yugoslavs'- if you will.

R1a: this is called the "Slavic gene" by people who do not really understand the field of population genetics (such as yourself). But it is not the Slavic gene, really. I will explain. R1a originated somehwere around Ukraine before the last ice age. It spread to eastern Europe and the Balkans during two or three different migrations. Firstly, (say 8,000 years ago also) after the ice age (as Ukraine also served as a refuge). Secondly, it might have been also spread during the spread of Indo-European languages, about 4, 000 years ago (ie what is now german, Slavic, Italian, Greek, etc). Only 'much later did people such as the Scythians, Sarmatians and Slavs undergo ethnogenesis. These people, because they were based in Ukraine would have likely had a high level of R1a. So yes, r1a is associated with Slavs, but not entirely. Other people also had R1a, and conversely Slavs also had other haplogroups, such as I and e3b. Tribes back then were very mixed, and certainly did not only hold one genetic marker. Only small amounts of this marker was brought in by the Slavs, the largest amount was brought much earlier. So the fact that Herzegovinans have only 12 % (whatever it is) R1a doenst mean they are the least Slavic , it means that between 8000 and 3000 years ago, the Ukrainian refuge people and Indo- European speakers settled Herzegovina less than Hungary or Slovernia because it was mountainous area. Yet although they had less physical presence in Herzegovina, their culture and language obviously made it to the region, as Illyrian is an indo-European language too.

There are other markers, also -E3b- more present in Serbs, Bulgarians, Greeks and macedonians, less in Croats and Slovenians.

Linking this with historical, archeological theories: You are partly right in te fact the South Slavs are Slavicized Balkan aborigines. In the past, historians wrongly thought that all the illyrians died or were killed, and then hundreds of thusands of Slavs came to the Balkans in 600s. This is wrong. A portion of of the Illyrians remained. Then Slavs came, and the two people mixed. The Illyrians taught Slavs some things like metal work, however, for some reason, the Slav language was kept as lingua franca. This is how all the south Slavs came to be- this is not unique to Bosnians. In fact, this is not unique to South Slavs either. All todays people are mixtures of numerous cultures, tribes, etc. Eg English: they too are predominantly derived from the ancient people who populated England after the last ice age from Spain. Then came celtic influnces, Roman influence. Then the anglo-saxons, who only left a moderate genetic contribution in eastern parts of England.

So my point is you cannot use the genetic data to prove that Bosnians aren't Slavs because R1a is not specific for Slavic people. Two: the fact that they are mostly descended from ancient Balkaners is nothing unique- all Europeans are descnded from the original inhabitants of their area ! ! Thridly, like it or not, they are a Slavic people because they speak a Slavic language. Although Bosniaks are muslim, they still have a Slavicness about them. You cannot deny the similarity between a Bosniak, Sebr, Croat, Macedonian. And sarma is not uniqe to Bosnia, i eat it all the time ! Hxseek (talk) 02:23, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

E3b