Talk:Yulia Tymoshenko/Archive 2

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Archive 1 Archive 2

Protected edit request

Can me or somebody else fix references 35 and 37 in the lead, currently they show gibberish? From the first reference we need to remove <%= item.timeFlag %> sentence. The second reference should look like as "ECHR:Tymoshenko suit over Ukraine treatment settled". dw.com/en. Retrieved 2015-01-22. Alex Bakharev (talk) 04:12, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

 Done and  Done (these ref fixes are unrelated to the ongoing content dispute). DMacks (talk) 04:18, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
Thanks! Alex Bakharev (talk) 04:34, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Persondata

Can someone remove the {{Persondata}} template from the bottom of the page? It's deprecated according to this RfC, since all the relevant data is on Wikidata now. clpo13(talk) 15:45, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Done — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 16:04, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

The other questionable sentence

The other subject of the edit war is:

Tymoshenko is against Russian aggression in Ukraine.[1]

I think the statement is trivial. Everybody in Kiev is against the aggression. If we could put some nontrivial details, e.g. that she provided her own money to equip a battalion, etc., then it should go to the article. Otherwise, it does not improve the article Alex Bakharev (talk)

Tymoshenko is against Russian aggression in Ukraine. It has a battalion "Homeland", which is fighting in the east of Ukraine. Tymoshenko constantly criticizes Putin.--Gal777 (talk) 06:26, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
What a stupid sentence. I am against Russian aggression in Ukraine. My Ukrainian wife is against Russian aggression in Ukraine. Her entire Russian-speaking family is against the Russian aggression in Ukraine. All her friends are against the Russian aggression in Ukraine. Nearly everyone in Ukraine is against the Russian aggression. This is like saying "Tymoshenko knows that the sun rises in the east". It's not noteworthy. --Taivo (talk) 07:55, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
Taivo,while I entirely agree with you, I hope you won't mind if I make a mild rebuke. You should not say that your wife is Ukrainian, it doesn't make your argument more potent, it weakens it. The force of an argument should reside in itself alone, and not depend on the identity of the person who makes it. Againstdisinformation (talk) 20:29, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
The point wasn't that my wife is Ukrainian. The point was that saying a Ukrainian is against the Russian invasion is utterly pointless because they all are. --Taivo (talk) 21:45, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
OK. Anyway, I totally agree with you. I just made that comment because I was under the impression that you felt you needed to strengthen your argument, when it was already sound. As I told you, I agree with you, and I hope I have not offended you. Againstdisinformation (talk) 22:24, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
The inserted content was sourced, but redundant - I agree. My very best wishes (talk)
I agree with you too, Mvbw. Againstdisinformation (talk) 19:00, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
Definitely redundant. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:42, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Tymoshenko: 'only US and EU can stop Russian aggression in Ukraine'". euronews.com. 2014-04-26. Retrieved 2014-04-26.

New outburst of the edit war, now in the lead

Now we have an edit war over the following statement (bolded is the disputed part):

Just after Euromaidan revolution, the Ukrainian Supreme Court and European Court of Human Rights closed the case and found that "no crime was committed".[1][2][3]

Guys, they are two separate cases:

  1. "The gas case" - Ukrainian Government against Timoshenko in the Ukrainian Supreme Court- the case was closed after Euromaidan,
  2. The human rights case - Timoshenko against the Ukrainian Government in the ECHR - the case was settled privately out of court, after closing of the first case

There is no "the case". The two cases are connected but they are different. The ECHR by its nature cannot find whether a crime of corruption took place or not, but it could find whether human rights of Timoshenko were violated and what type of compensation she is entitled to. The ECHR accepted the case so we can speculate that Timoshenko's case had its merits but there is no final decision because it was settled out of court and anyway decision could possibly be that Timoshenko's rights had been trespassed, so she would have been entitled for some compensation and retrial. EHCR is not empowered to make decisions whether "a crime was committed".

Finally, the third reference is mis-formed and is actually misformatted. I would expect such experienced used as User:Volunteer Marek to check what they are edit warring to add, especially if it was discussed already in the talk two section above. Alex Bakharev (talk) 04:02, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, the European Court of Human Rights only closed their case, but it did not found that "no crime was committed", ant there were two different cases. This is not at all obvious after looking only at the additionally included source. My very best wishes (talk) 14:56, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
The references problem is now fixed, thanks, User:DMacks Alex Bakharev (talk) 04:35, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
I agree and suggest that the wrong attribution be speedily removed. Furthermore, I suggest that someone, not me, investigate the reason why ECHR is recurrently misquoted in this article. Againstdisinformation (talk) 23:51, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Actually, the edit was not that terrible. We should only tell that both courts closed their "cases" (rather than "the case") and that both courts found that the original case was "politically motivated", rather than "no crime was committed". My very best wishes (talk) 19:26, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ <%= item.timeFlag %>. "ITAR-TASS: World – Ukrainian Supreme Court closes Tymoshenko's 'gas case'". En.itar-tass.com. Retrieved 2014-07-26.
  2. ^ "Ukraine: Court "discontinues" examination of Tymoshenko human rights complaint". humanrightseurope.org. Retrieved 2015-01-22.
  3. ^ . dw.com/en [ECHR:Tymoshenko suit over Ukraine treatment settled ECHR:Tymoshenko suit over Ukraine treatment settled]. Retrieved 2015-01-22. {{cite web}}: Check |url= value (help); Missing or empty |title= (help)

Protected edit request on 6 October 2015

Change [[Category:Inmates of Lukianivka Prison]] to [[Category:Inmates of Lukyanivska Prison]] The category was renamed. Armbrust The Homunculus 13:37, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:25, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Recent significant changes to the article

I'm reverting the article to a previous stable version. Therequiembellishere, you are an experienced Wikipedian, yet you're not following WP:BRD. Onukab, you have also failed to use this talk page in order to discuss content issues. There are multiple editors involved in the article, so it would be appreciated if clear edit summaries were provided and radical changes to the content (including the infobox) were explained. Please remember that neither of you WP:OWN the article. Thank you. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:28, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

P.S. Please note that I've templated the article as being in use while I clean up the dog's breakfast made of the references after the last bout of edit warring. Hopefully, this shouldn't take more than an hour or so, so please take this opportunity to discuss content changes here while I clean it up. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:53, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
Okay, I've only just finished the initial ref clean-up. It's a lot worse that I thought. The worst of the issues have been addressed, but there's a lot of link rot and other problems to fix. I'll get on with the final leg of this 'journey' ASAP. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:22, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

ECHR findings

I found my way here by way of a blocking case of former "AgainstDisinformation" and became curious what the fuss was about regarding that editor. When i look into the contested content about the findings of the ECHR, mainly whether they said there was a violation of article 3 (prohibition against torture) or not, i found the three sources used to support that section are [1], [2], and [3].

The only one of the three that does support the claim is the third one, which is a Wayback Machine archive of a website whose URL is www.tymoshenko.ua which leads me to some caution already.

Then, i added a comma in a minor edit to that section previously, and i find the same comma missing in that third source, after "...and family life)" and then i notice that the text in this Wikipedia article is a direct text copy from that source. Now there are a few problems with this:

  • Not supposed to directly copy text, as it's a WP:COPYVIO
  • The source is really shaky and is used to support a claim that is otherwise contested at the talk page here with other sources
  • The source has at least a flavor of POV being named after the person in question, doesn't it?

So, i haven't changed the text other than adding a comma and capitalizing the name of the ECHR, but i point these things out for others, as a third-party editor who has come here in curiosity to see what was the reason for persecuting former "AgainstDisinformation" as if they were a bad editor. I see clues to say that they were actually a rather good editor here. SageRad (talk) 13:47, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I see that two days later, nobody has chosen to discuss this, or to make a change to the article. That is interesting. It seems that people are satisfied with the content reflecting something tht appears to be untrue. SageRad (talk) 10:43, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
I've redrafted the section and added a source to the original documents. In this case, it is not the ECHR establishing the violation of the ECHR rights, but the Ukraine government itself acknowledging them, and the Court striking off the case due to friendly settlement among the parties.--Davide Denti (OBC) (talk) 14:08, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
@Onukab:, fancy discussing why the interpretation - based on the original documents - would be "wrong" and deserving reverting?--Davide Denti (OBC) (talk) 17:47, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

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Checked Confirmed as correct. Thanks, Cyberbot II. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:16, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

+ February 2016 interview with The New York Times....

.... that may be useful for expansion of this article can be found here. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 17:03, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

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Yulia Tymoshenko v. Dmytro Firtash, Paul Manafort et al

https://www.scribd.com/document/319257946/Yulia-Tymoshenko-v-Dmytro-Firtash-Paul-Manafort-et-al --Wikipietime (talk) 23:35, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

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Book: Ukraine, Gas and Handcuffs

The sentence I deleted was written in such poor English that I can't be sure what it's meant to say. I suspect that it was someone's attempt to identify the author of the book, but I can't find an authoritative source in English. Several web sites are cited, but they suffer from the same problem or are written in Italian.

A more general concern: I question whether this article is sufficiently neutral in tone. Too often it strikes me as an elaborate effort to paint Tymoshenko in the best possible terms. On the other hand, someone worked hard to provide inline citations (there are over 500 of them). And I am not knowledgeable about Ukrainian politics. So I will leave it to others who are more expert in this field to decide if anything needs to be done to make it more neutral. BuzzWeiser196 (talk) 13:22, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

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Noticing the campaign by Paul Manafort in the lead

This edit. What's the problem? It was already described in the whole section on the page. This is just a few words summary. This is really important to notice in context of her persecution by Yanukovich. Perhaps rephrase? How? My very best wishes (talk) 01:38, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion

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