Talk:September Days

September days?

Please cite any source that refers to these events as "September days". Thanks in advance. Grandmaster 10:07, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Someone inserted the info about January 1990 into this article, which I removed. This article is about September 1918. Grandmaster 15:14, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay. Artaxiad 16:12, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Partisan sources like Dadrian cannot be used. --Grandmaster 11:03, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Unless you can prove that Dadrian is not reliable for any other reason then for being Armenian you're violating AA2 principle #2 by claiming his a partisan source. --VartanM 17:44, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

You can't dismiss every single source whose author has a last name ending with -yan or -ian as unreliable and partisan. You'd be hard pressed to find sources on this encyclopedia, used on FA articles even, that are completely non-partisan -- such a concept virtually doesn't exist. Either critique him for factual accuracy or something more germane to the argument of why he should be discounted or not at all. --Marshal Bagramyan 19:56, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

This is a source with a clear agenda. I can use similar sources from Azerbaijani side, but do you think that use of such sources from either side will help establish accurate picture of what really happened? I could not find any mention of preceding March massacre of Muslims by Armenians in Dadrian’s book, as if it never ever happened. However all third party sources mention both. This fact speaks for itself. Grandmaster 09:37, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

"However all third party sources mention both". -All? Many third party sources represented in this article (included Britannica) say nothing about March days! Andranikpasha 14:12, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

UPD- Is the Dadrian the only one? For example, a quotation from the Britannica Students Encyclopedia: "Azerbaijan was declared an independent state on May 28, 1918, but Baku remained in the hands of a communist government, assisted by local Armenian soldiers, who had put down a Muslim revolt in March. Allied with the advancing Turkish army, in September 1918 the Azerbaijani nationalists secured their capital, Baku, and engaged in a massacre of the Armenians". Andranikpasha 16:00, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

That article is Britannica is written by Ronald Grigor Suny, an ethnic Armenian, who is being criticised for his position on these events by other international scholars. Grandmaster 11:00, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Its not a problem as Britannica received and published the article under its name and even without marking of the author. Its a Britannica SE article from their official site without even notification of Suny's name. PS- Grandmaster, any time when we marks about the critics by the intl scolars and so on, anyways sources needed! Maybe you know that sources but if you want to prove something, pls add that reliable sources for the discussions too! Thanks in advance! Andranikpasha 11:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

See the article about Azerbaijan in Britannica (history section). The name of the author is provided in the end. As for Suny's bias, it is mentioned by professor Michael Smith:

Например, ни Расулзаде (Resulzade M. E. Das Problem Aserbeidschan. Berlin, 1938), ни А. Балаев (Азербайджанское национал-демократическое движение. С. 18-19) не упоминают о резне азербайджанцами армян в сентябре 1918 года. Наоборот, в последних работах Рональда Суни не упоминается резня армянами азербайджанцев в марте 1918 года. См.: Suny R. G. The Soviet Experiment: Russia, the USSR, and Successor States. New York; Oxford, 1998. P. 99-100; The Revolution in Transcaucasia // Critical Companion to the Russian Revolution, 1917-1921 / Eds. E. Acton, V. Cherniaev and W. Rosenberg. Bloomington, 1997. P. 725). [1]

Neither Rasulzade (Resulzade M. E. Das Problem Aserbeidschan. Berlin, 1938), nor A.Balayev (Азербайджанское национал-демократическое движение. С. 18-19) mention the massacre of Armenians by Azerbaijanis in September 1918. On the contrary, the recent works by Ronald Suny don’t mention the massacre of Azerbaijanis by Armenians in March 1918, (see Suny R. G. The Soviet Experiment: Russia, the USSR, and Successor States. New York; Oxford, 1998. P. 99-100; The Revolution in Transcaucasia // Critical Companion to the Russian Revolution, 1917-1921 / Eds. E. Acton, V. Cherniaev and W. Rosenberg. Bloomington, 1997. P. 725).

Note the words "massacre of Azerbaijanis by Armenians in March 1918". --Grandmaster 12:13, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but the Britannica Encyclopedia and Britannica Student Encyclopedia official site seems to be different sources... thanks for the quotation, at last! although its only one, not "plenty of" (note, cited by you from a Sakharov-fund publication:). What he is wrote: "the recent works by Ronald Suny ....(see Suny R. G. The Soviet Experiment: Russia, the USSR, and Successor States. New York; Oxford, 1998. P. 99-100; The Revolution in Transcaucasia // Critical Companion to the Russian Revolution, 1917-1921 / Eds. E. Acton, V. Cherniaev and W. Rosenberg. Bloomington, 1997. P. 725): no Britannica is cited! Or do you think if one researcher (an American PhD) criticizes 2 works of another researcher (an American Prof.), its means all of his books, articles (even without his name on it) are not neutral?? Andranikpasha 12:57, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

It is the same Britannica article. And Smith is right, Suny makes no mention of the massacre of Azeris. I'm not saying that Suny is a bad scholar, he is not, but in this particular issue his bias was noted by other scholars. Grandmaster 13:04, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

"It is the same Britannica article".- citation needed!! Anyways Smith didnt mark not Britannica's article, nor BSE's one. When BSE publishes an article without a name only BSE is responsible for it! You know when we make citations from encyclopedias (especially from Britannicas or Microsofts family), we never mark who is the author, as more important if the Encyclopedia accepted it. Andranikpasha 14:05, 5 September 2007 (UTC) PS.-It seems to be interesting to use Bonner's fund's publications (of a conference, also organized by her fund) as a reliable source in the time you're tring to call her pro-Armenian... Sorry I cant understand the principes you differ for yourself which one reference is OK and which one is not good enough! Andranikpasha 14:34, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

This is the Britannica article on the history of Azerbaijan, as you can see the text is identical to the students edition. [2]

And this is who wrote it: [3] Grandmaster 08:07, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Is it important if the texts are identical, if I referenced to another source "BSE" where authors are not marked? And is researcher (G. Melvyn Howe) pro-Armenian? And is even prof. Suny pro-Armenian? Pls prove! Andranikpasha 11:55, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

G. Melvyn Howe is an expert in geography and he wrote the Geography section. Suny wrote the History section. And if 2 texts are indentical and one is authored by Suny, it is impossible that the other is written by someone else. Common logic. Grandmaster 12:08, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Are the logics (or our opinion) a reliable source for Wiki? Pls prove by reliable sources that: "BSE"'s cited articles author is Suny? And is researcher G. Melvyn Howe signed the whole article in another source is pro-Armenian? And is even prof. Suny pro-Armenian (pls prove by a source!)? Andranikpasha 13:04, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

References

Baku Massacre, 1918

As there're also other non-partisan sources used Massacre for September Days tragedy, maybe to move this article to Baku Massacre, 1918 and put a redirect from the "September days"? Andranikpasha 21:03, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

No source uses the term Baku massacre. We should use generally accepted name, but this event has none. Plus Baku massacre can be used as a title for the March massacre of Muslim population. We have previously discussed whether to create March massacre and September massacre articles, but finally settled on the existing titles. --Grandmaster 07:36, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes they do they are referenced in the article. --Hu1lee 17:00, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

"We have previously discussed whether to create March massacre and September massacre articles, but finally settled on the existing titles". -So your question "Please cite any source that refers to these events as "September days"" is not actual now? I dont know if by Wiki rules we need a third party source related not only to the topic and "terms in the name" but to the "full name" of the article. In that case we must call this article Massacre of the Armenians, September 1918, Baku, and searching a term for "March days" (if such a term exitst)... Andranikpasha 14:23, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

The term exists. There are plenty of sources refering to March events as a massacre. We can rename both to March massacre and September massacre. We discussed that with involvement of the admin Khoikhoi not so long ago. Grandmaster 10:58, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

"There are plenty of sources refering to March events as a massacre." -see my answer below! Please add the quotations (like me) to discuss them. B/c at first you asked "all third party sources" when I make some quotations you change it to "plenty of sources". And what they are saying? Are they reliable or no? Andranikpasha 11:34, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Of course. See the relevant article. Grandmaster 12:05, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

the only one, not "plenty of"... see below!Andranikpasha 13:01, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

see the article about March days. Grandmaster 13:09, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

This is a talk list to discuss the topics and sources. Any additional Wikipedia article is not a reliable source! The discussion list is for represention of sources (to prove something you asked). When you want to prove something here its necessary to use sources not links to any Wiki article! Andranikpasha 13:46, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

You are asking me about March days article, therefore I'm refering you there. Grandmaster 07:59, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

This article references mainly Armenian authors in a topic about conflict involving Armenians. This clearly violates WP:NPOV policy and is not acceptable per ArbCom principle. For instance, rather deliberately inflated figure of 30,000 is said to belong to Roland Grigor Suny, while another 3rd party source available at March Days, cited Armenian National Council statement with only 8,988 deaths. POV tag hence needs to be inserted here until sufficient 3rd party sources are presented. Atabek 22:30, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

"said to belong"... see above! "cited Armenian National Council statement": its a partisan source! Andranikpasha 11:59, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Andranikpasha, the reference to the Armenian National Committee is the most authentic, as ANC committee was based in Baku, and had a first-hand evidence of the number of victims. But if you want to dispute that, let me also add that Dadrian, Suny and Kayaloff are also non-neutral sources on the subject. So, please, provide explanation as to how they're neutral and discuss them. For now this definitely calls for POV tag here. Thanks. Atabek 13:11, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

"added tag per Andranikpasha's dispute of ANC/Kazemzadeh source, as well as per Dadrian, Suny and Kayaloff being non-neutral sources"- Atabek, please be more careful while using my name as a source to edit or editwarring different articles. I never disputted Kazemzadeh, as well as Dadrian,Suny and Kayaloff! No such a fact so its not true! Please check carefully and then add my name (despite I think in any case my behaviour and disputs are not common rules for Wiki as Im just a person, user). Once I disputed Armenian Nacional Council as its a partisan organization. Nothing more... Andranikpasha 14:55, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, Andranikpasha, if you're disputing Armenian National Council numbers coming from Kazemzadeh reference, then you obviously are disputing Kazemzadeh reference, which is what I put in my comment. I dispute Dadrian, Suny and Kayaloff, those are non-neutral references in this case. Also, Baku Massacre is not an appropriate title for this article as March Massacres qualify for such as well. To remain neutral this version of the title must be removed. Atabek 16:26, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Again, Atabek, I asked that Armenian NC is a partisan organization. Thats fact! if Kazemzadeh, anyone else (even the most prominent researchers) use their numbers and citing them, its never mean I discusse all these reseachers. Its their right to use any sources and mark from where it is. Pls never write if I diputed anyone if its you "dispute Dadrian, Suny and Kayaloff, those are non-neutral references in this case". Ill not delete the POV tag as I hope you will justify why you're think they're not neutral in this case. The March Days mostly called Baku Revolt and Fightings (see the talk page- its a different article), and pls do not delete the terms of references and then discuss them (all these references call the events massacres not September Days and you didnt add any justifications and sources why these sources are not neutral). Andranikpasha 19:01, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Baku massacre is also a reference to the massacre of Azerbaijanis in March. You cannot claim that only these events were refered by that name. We should use more accurate terms for both events, like March massacre in Baku and September massacre in Baku, because in 1918 there was more than 1 such tragic event in Baku. Grandmaster 19:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Grandmaster, as we see, the March Days mostly referred as supprising of revolt and fightings between Bolsheviks and Mussavatists. Is it not better to use the most common name for an event?Andranikpasha 21:21, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

March events are not mostly described as Muslim revolt, it is not known who initiated the fighting. As for September days, they also followed the battle of Baku. However the March events are referred to as massacre, so you cannot say that there was only one massacre at that period, and only in September. Grandmaster 06:02, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

"it is not known who initiated the fighting." anyways it is not so important for description (it can be used for History part). Fightings are fightings... Do you mean that the revolt iniciated by Bolsheviks? i think we must use more commonly used and sourced name for these events as the hronology (what followed to what) is a detail for background, pre-history, not a base for the name disputing. You say we cant use the term Baku Massacres for the both events but directly in the description of March Days you mark their another description as "genocide". Would I delete the term especially if the references are partisan, Azerbaijani sources? Andranikpasha 11:32, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Primary sources

Two sections are based only on the primary sources:"Local testimony" and "Austrian testimony". They must be improved so I put the tags. --Quantum666 (talk) 08:38, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

March days and September massacre

I just copied this from the article's text. Follow its logic and it becomes clear that March Days had little if anything to do with the September massacre: "A terrible panic in Baku ensued once the Turks entered the city.The Armenians crowded the harbor in a frantic effort to escape the fate that they knew always accompanied a Muslim victory.[10] Regular Ottoman troops were not allowed to enter the city for two days, so that the local irregulars – bashibozuks – would conduct looting and pillaging, a practice in accordance with Muslim tradition for cities that resisted.[2][10] Despite this order, regular Ottoman troops participated alongside the irregulars and the Azeris of Baku in the plundering, who then turned their fury against the city's Armenian population." Sprutt (talk) 01:33, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

There are hundreds of sources about those events being a revenge. I added a couple, a modern secondary source, and memoir of the British general Milne, who served in Transcaucasia. According to Milne:

They succeeded in compelling the small British force which was in Baku to evacuate that town on 15th September, 1918, and a two days' massacre of Armenians followed, as a reprisal for the Armenian massacre of Tartars in March, 1918.

And Hovanissian, whom you quote, is not the most neutral source on this issue. If needed, I can add dozens of more sources about these events being a retaliation for the March massacre. Grandmaster 11:09, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

okay 172.58.171.81 (talk) 13:29, 15 August 2021 (UTC)