Talk:Romani anthem

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translation[edit]

I changed the "Roma youth" part into "brothers". I did so without knowing any of the Roma languages, or being a native English. I did so for a reason though: other translations, including Hungarian and Italian have "brother" in the place, and because al the Romas I know refer to and address fellow Romas as "brother", like English speaking minorities of similar situation.

I started this discussion page because I am not certain and I do not claim the right to decide such things, but still, "Roma youth" sounds awkward, and "brothers" sounds natural to me. Anapazapa (talk) 15:40, 17 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would say the translation isn't reliable, for a start, the first two instances of "A Romale, A Chavale" are translated as "O Roma, O brothers", but then the last two "A Rromalen, A chavalen" are also simply translated as "O Roma, O brothers". Also, "Rroma" and "Rom" are translated into the English "Roma".

As a general comment, if this is a Romani anthem, then why does the translation just refer to Roma? Could someone with Romani language skills clear this us? Snarfe (talk) 17:12, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Romani language uses separate words to denote Romani entities and Gadjo entities (Non-Romanies), for example rakli meaning 'girl' but chaj meaning 'girl/daughter/young female Romani', which is why the anthem refers specifically to Romanies. I hope that helps! (Xamurrochokas (talk) 11:09, 30 September 2012 (UTC))[reply]

Chavale is a stressed declaration of 'children', "little boys," or 'Romani Youths'. I'm afraid brothers isn't an accurate translation, in which case it would have been written "A Romale, A phralale," or similar depending on the dialect. Unless anyone has an issue I'm going to change this back to children, as was I think it's original intent to express. It's not written here in my native dialect, but I don't think it'd do any harm for someone to take a look at it for other errors present perhaps as a result of good faith edits (for example, on the eighth line 'mansa' already means 'with me', I'm not sure what the extra -sa indicates). As in any language dialects can be so different and varied, I'm not comfortable calling anything outright as an error unless I know for sure/ have had the input of speakers of other dialects. (On the other hand the lyrics suggested by the Patrin Web Journal link include the -sa. I'm probably entirely wrong. It might be worth discussion?) (Xamurrochokas (talk) 11:09, 30 September 2012 (UTC))[reply]

@Xamurrochokas: Dear friend: I think this second "sa" to which you refer means "all" (everyone). Sometimes is written "sya", at least in Kalderash. (Pica-soques (talk) 18:43, 21 March 2015 (UTC))[reply]

@Xamurrochokas: About the translation of "A Chavale", I completely agree with you; it's a colloquial vocative and I would also translate it as "O Boys!" better than "O Romani youths!", because the expression refers to either young or adult Romani men. (Maybe it's no necessary to write "O Romani Boys!" when "A Chavale!" comes just after saying "A Romale!"). The two lines with "A Romalen, A Chavalen" are either wrong or in a different dialect that I do not know. (Pica-soques (talk) 18:43, 21 March 2015 (UTC))[reply]

I completed the edits to the this page. The word ‘chavale’ doesn’t translate to ‘brothers’, even though it’s used in some communities to express brotherhood. That’s colloquial and doesn’t qualify as a translation of a word which has a single literal meaning to all Roma, which is, “Children!”, or more accurately, “Romani boys!”. I also deleted the column containing Ronald Lee’s translation, because it translates a different version of lyrics (there are many versions of Gelem, Gelem, and the English translation here is not faithful to the lyrics written Rromanes). Ronald Lee is an amazing man and if anybody is inclined to include his lyrics (both English and Romani) they should be included together, in two more columns. As it is I’ve included them in a new ‘Alternate Lyrics’ section.[[Xamurrochokas (talk) 16:41, 13 November 2012 (UTC)]][reply]

Alternative translation[edit]

I found another translation on dunav.org although it also doesn't seem so reliable. Hopefully someone will come along soon and clear this up. Snarfe (talk) 17:14, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nartional Anthem (What is it?)[edit]

National anthem (also national hymn) is a generally patriotic musical composition that evokes and eulogizes the history, traditions and struggles of its people, recognized either by a nation's government as the official national song. It is NATION AL, not such a general anthem. --HumanNaturOriginal (talk) 13:39, 7 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And from where exactly do you get this narrow definition, because if it is from National anthem, you 'somehow missed' - or by convention through use by the people. RashersTierney (talk) 16:40, 7 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I keep going... or by convention through use by the people. This is my source: National Anthem. You' re right wiki is not an R.S. but we re talking about something very well known (context requires). This is also the page of the qualified national anthems from Encyclopedia Britannica.Worldwide National Anthems I didn't see any as "romani" --HumanNaturOriginal (talk) 18:03, 7 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Three reliable sources that specifically use the phrase 'the Romani national anthem' to describe this song. RashersTierney (talk) 18:18, 7 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Encyclopedia Britannica is more competent and reliable about this issue. --HumanNaturOriginal (talk) 18:35, 7 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So, because Encyclopedia Britannica doesn't include something neither should we? You asked for, and were provided with, reliable sources. Is this discussion to be an exercise in time-wasting because the evidence you asked for doesn't suit your view? RashersTierney (talk) 19:31, 7 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I really don't understand your language, anyway Encyclopedia Britannica is the reliable source. This issue has to do with "nation", otherwise it would pose, no problem --HumanNaturOriginal (talk) 20:57, 7 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Don't think we're making any headway here. If anyone in the future wants to revive this discussion, feel free. In the meantime I'll add the page to [[Category:Anthems]]. RashersTierney (talk) 22:23, 7 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The last verse of the anthem is inconsistent with the upper writing. One can read different orthographic conventions (Rromalen, Chavalen, mançar...). This should be corrected by someone familiar with standard Romani orthography. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Il Qathar (talk • contribs) 09:38, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Language / Dialect[edit]

I think it should be clarified in what Romani dialect Žarko Jovanović wrote the lyrics of "Gelem, Gelem". Imag-reali (talk) 11:48, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Black Legion[edit]

I don't understand how the footnote called from "Black Legion" is relevant. Is this Black Legion the Black Legion (Ustaše militia), or the SS-Totenkopfverbände? If we have a reliable source for this, this could be stated clearly in the article. Apokrif (talk) 22:51, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]