Talk:Holodomor/Archive 16

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 10

←

Archive 14

→

And another thing

Why has there been a POV tag on this article since June? The Last Angry Man (talk) 18:04, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing it to my attention I fixed the POV claims introduced to the article in June by bringing the number of deaths to the figures established by a consensus. Now it is all good. (Igny (talk) 13:38, 25 September 2011 (UTC))

Kuban

Let us revisit the debate on estimated death toll. The scholars estimated up to 4 million dead in Ukraine an up to 5 million if Ukrainians from Kuban are included. Is Holodomor defined as famine in Ukraine, or famine of Ukrainians? I guess there is an isolation of Holodomor from the Soviet famine if we treat Ukrainians as some chosen ethnicity, and Mace might be right indeed there was almost no famine of Ukrainians outside Ukraine (and probably Kuban) to speak of. But my question is about the death toll in the article template. 5 millions of Ukrainians dead includes Kuban. Is Kuban included in Holodomor? (Igny (talk) 21:34, 25 September 2011 (UTC))

I believe so...it's part of the Ukrainian ethnic map. It's geographically adjacent. Scholars include it. Why not?--Львівське (talk) 21:45, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I can not care less about what you believe. Can you provide RS? (Igny (talk) 22:22, 25 September 2011 (UTC))

I can not care less what you want to push here, you know yourself that the Kuban is treated by scholars as part of it, as evidenced in the lead of the article. What's your angle here if you already know the answer to your question? Or is this more attrition BS forcing others to dig up sources for your amusement?--Львівське (talk) 22:30, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Reforcing others to dig up sources for your amusement?. Yes it is rather amusing to ask people to provide sources which support their beliefs, especially when I know there are no such sources out there. But that is ok, I accept that you concede. I just hope that you would stop edit-warring for your beliefs. (Igny (talk) 22:35, 25 September 2011 (UTC))

We don't need to return to this issue again. If we want to represent Holodomor as a famine directed against the Ukrainians, we need a documental proof of the fact that consensus exists among the scholars about the genocidal nature of Holodomor (in other words, the concept "Holodomor was a genocide of the Ukrainians" is supposed to be the sole mainstream viewpoint). In the absence of such a consensus among the scholars Holodomor is limited with the goegorphical borders of the Ukrainian SSR.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:54, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

@Paul & Igny: It is pure POV codswallop to exclude deaths in Kuban outright. I seem to recall that we reached a consensus in last year's War of the Lead to include Kuban deaths as a caveat to the death toll, i.e. "X million deaths in UkSSR, plus X million more if deaths in the heavily Ukrainian-populated Kuban are included". ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 23:58, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I do not object including these deaths. I just point out a cause for a confusion. If the Holodomor is defined in the first sentence as

a man-made famine that took place on the territory of the Ukrainian SSR in 1932 and 1933

and the reader looks at the template before reading the whole lede, he would conclude that 5 million were dead in UkSSR. Moreover these 3 statements together imply that Kuban was part of UkSSR. (Igny (talk) 00:27, 26 September 2011 (UTC))

In Conquest's 'Harvest of Sorrow', pg 278, "The Ukrainian nationality and culture was strongly attacked," and goes on to talk about repressions in 1932-33 in Kuban against Ukrainians that occurred. Read on and the emphasis is either on Ukrainians, Kuban Cossacks, or Volga Germans. Or here, p100, how the Cossack quarter of the village was starving while those from Leningrad were well fed. Tottle/Mace figures are talked about in regard to Kuban's inclusion to figures. This source explicitly states that Ukraine considers the Holodomor against 'the Ukrainian people' (and not state, or within arbitrary borders or what have you) and 'Ukraine and Kuban' are mentioned in one of the same. Ellman refers to the Kuban Ukrainian genocide...--Львівське (talk) 00:31, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Firstly, Conquest partially reconsidered his opinion, and he doesn't insist any more that the famine was directed against Ukrainians specifically.

Secondly, Ellman specified that Kuban is the only case when we have some ground to speak about genocide during the Soviet famine of 1932-33. Ellman does not discuss Holodomor as something separate from the greater Soviet famine ("What recent research has found in the archives is not a conscious policy of genocide against Ukraine" (Ellman 2005)).--Paul Siebert (talk) 00:41, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Some changes to the lede.

I made some changes to the lede that do not seem controversial for me. Firstly, I removed the word "Ukrainians", because there is no evidence that non-Ukrainian rural population suffered in lesser extent. The lede already says that Holodomor occurred on the territory of UkrSSR, so I don't expect any objections.
Secondly, I think that it would be correct to say that Holodomor was caused by a combination of the consequences of the agrarian reforms, food requisitions and poor weather, and scholars argue only about relative contribution of these factors. In connection to that, instead of vague and inconcrete "man-made" I simply listed these factors. If someone wants to add "industrialisation" to the list of causes, we can discuss that.--Paul Siebert (talk) 00:57, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Revert why

[1] This revert was done as I believe majority of sources say the famine was in fact man made, or at least that stalins policy's were a major contributing factor. Also no page number given for a source. The Last Angry Man (talk) 22:00, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

There is no denying that unlike the prior famine in which aid was sought (with Herbert Hoover running the famine aid effort), Stalin did not request aid, Stalin prevented Ukrainians (in particular) from leaving the famine zone, Stalin requisitioned grain to the point of leaving nothing, etc., etc. Not asking for international aid could only be a conscious and deliberate decision. "Oops, I forgot, we could have asked for help like we did before!" Somehow I don't see that in Stalin's lexicon. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 22:49, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Read last Conquest's interviews on that account. Being a honest scholar, he partially reconsidered his views, and he does not consider this famine a deliberate Stalin's act. I also advise you to read a whole discussion between Conquest and Wheatcroft, both sides provide quite persuasive arguments. Moreover, your edit is in a direct contradiction with what the article (a "Genocide qiestion" section) currently says.--Paul Siebert (talk) 00:06, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Who doubts here that this famine is a part of the bigger Soviet famine? Why do you keep deleting that statement? (Igny (talk) 03:45, 20 September 2011 (UTC))

Because some writers, such as Timothy Snyder, have noted t hat there were special conditions in Ukraine that were not implemented in other parts of the USSR that contributed to greater lethality in Ukraine - i.e., it is just one POV that the famine in Ukraine was simply another part of the general USSR-wide Famine, specific only by geography.Faustian (talk) 04:41, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

The 'universalist' view is standard Russo-Soviet rhetoric, "one slav people", "one orthodox people", "no holocaust, one tragedy to all citizens during great patriotic war", and of course, that the 'famine affected the entire USSR'. Its typical for Communists to try to view everything as equal, but its unhistorical.--Львівське (talk) 05:29, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

TLAM, could you provide a source showing that it is the consensus of academic writers that the famine was man-made? TFD (talk) 03:55, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

My impression is that there is no consensue about whether or not it is genocide, but general consensus that it was manmade. For what it's worth, Timothy Snyder's Bloodlands, pg. 42: "though collectivization was a disaster everywhere in the Soviet Union, the evidence of clearly premeditated mass murder on the scale of millions was most evident in Ukraine."Faustian (talk) 04:26, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Majority of sources clearly state that Holodomor was a deliberate act. Stalin Genocides. Norman M. Naimark. Some quotes.

"By 1931 the state collections of cereals in the largest wheat-growing regions of Ukraine and the northern Caucasus constituted 45–46 percent of the entire harvest, leaving the peasants bereft of food supplies.3 Grain shortages led the peasants to slaughter their animals. Those collective farms that still had supplies of seed grain for the following year’s harvest were forced to turn them over to the authorities. There was nothing left to eat or to plant, less because of the total size of the harvest (historians estimate that it was not so bad in 1932) than because of the forced removal of peasant production"

"Widespread grain shortages in Ukraine due to the excesses of requisitioning led to fierce hunger and horrible desperation in the Ukrainian countryside, as well as in northern Kuban"

"In the month of February 1933 alone, cordons of OGPU troops arrested 220,000 Ukrainian peasants attempting to flee their villages. Of these, 190,000 were sent back home, which meant they were essentially condemned to death. The rest were sent to the Gulag, where the death rate during the famine years was also exceptionally high.8 Roadblocks set up by the authorities prevented Ukrainian peasants from entering the cities, where food was sometimes available, though far from plentiful. Even when the desperate peasants managed to elude the roadblocks and find their way to the city, they often collapsed and perished in the streets from lack of food. The authorities had the dead bodies quickly removed from sight. Offers of food relief to Ukraine from outside the Soviet Union were turned down as unnecessary; in fact, the Soviet authorities obstinately denied the very existence of the famine when they knew differently"

Should anyone have sources which say it was not deliberate please present them. The Last Angry Man (talk) 08:39, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Wheatcroft, Davis, Tauger, Ellman. Robert Conquest, the author of "Harvest of Sorrow", does not support the idea about a deliberate nature of Holodomor any more. All these works have been cited in the article.--Paul Siebert (talk) 11:11, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

These are still a minority. The majority consensus is that is was deliberate.--Galassi (talk) 11:50, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

These seem to be some of the top authors on the topic. GreyHood ^Talk 12:11, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Tauger seems to be th only one who denies that it was manmade. From this article, recent Conquest: "that with resulting famine imminent, he [Stalin] could have prevented it, but put 'Soviet interest' other than feeding the starving first - thus consciously abetting it." Wheatcroft - "[W]e regard the policy of rapid industrialization as an underlying cause of the agricultural troubles of the early 1930s, and we do not believe that the Chinese or NEP versions of industrialization were viable in Soviet national and international circumstances." Recent Conquest and Wheatcroft deny that Stalin's goal was to starve peasants, however they do state that the famine was caused by Soviet policies and thus was artificial/manmade. The fact that the famine was manmade seems to be noncontroversial and the view of the majority of scholars. Whether killing was the goal in itself (vs. the known but accepted side effect of the Soviet industrialization of agriculture) is where opinions among scholars differ - and whether this can be labelled genocide is more controversial still. But the fact that it was manmade is not.Faustian (talk) 13:38, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

These authors conclude that the government policy partially contributed to the famine. In addition, the term "man made" implies that Holodomor was deliberately organised, which was probably not the case.--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:01, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

"Underlying cause" seems to tell us it was manmade - in other words, if not for man's interventions there would not be the famine. I would prefer some sort of clarification, such as a sentence about the dispute whether the starvation was deliberate policy in itself vs. a known and accepted side effect of another policy. The consenus is that the famine wasn't just due to a dustbowl-type situation where the peasants didn't produce enough to even feed themselves. Without the phrase man-made it reads as if this might have been the case.Faustian (talk) 14:22, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

There was (and continues to be) a draught some every 10-11-12 years in the East European plain because of the solar cycle (and it is extremely widely known fact), so there would be low harvest and hunger anyway and speculations like that "if not for man's interventions there would not be the famine" are hardly could be proven true. The actions of authorities (or the lack of them) contributed to the scale (almost everyone agrees on that), but it is a question how much was that contribution. GreyHood ^Talk 14:33, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

There was a very deadly famine in the Volga region in the 19th century but not in Ukraine, where unlike in Russia "bad years" and low harvests did not result in mass deaths. A summary of historical famines in Ukraine from the Encyclopedia of Ukraine: [2].Faustian (talk) 14:56, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

If the Holodomor wasn't deliberate - how many Soviet politicians have been punished as responsible for such major errors?Xx236 (talk) 12:21, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

The top persons from the government of the Ukrainian USSR (e.g. Stanislav Kosior) were executed few years later, though on different charges. GreyHood ^Talk 12:31, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

"on different charges". If people didn't obey Soviet leadership, they were arrested and excuted rather than purged years later. The same were purged people outside Ukraine.Xx236 (talk) 12:47, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Not really. Charges related to past activity were normal during the purges. Also, there was a related anecdote, that while in the U.S. a spy would be charged with economic crimes and sentenced, in the USSR an economic criminal would be charged as spy and sentenced. GreyHood ^Talk 13:02, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Comment There appear to be an edit war over the statement of relief being denied, urely none can state that relief was not denied? All sources point to this fact. Also per WP:BRD the recent changes which were reverted are also being edit warred in, it was inserted, it was reverted, now discuss. The Last Angry Man (talk) 13:23, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

The sources have been provided in a responce to your request. These sources are by no means unreliable, minority or fringe. Moreover, the article currently states that many scholars do not believe Holodomor was deliberately organised. Therefore, your revert is totally unjustified.

In addition, the dispute is over at least three separate things: the man made nature of Holodomor, Holodomor as a part of the Great Famine, and the prohibition of relief by the government. Although these issues had already been discussed later, we can discuss them again. However, let's do that separately.--Paul Siebert (talk) 13:59, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

More on Wheatcroft&Davis

Below is a quote from the Paul Gregory's review on R. W. Davies, and Stephen G. Wheatcroft's "The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931–1933" published in The Journal of Modern History, Vol. 78, No. 2 (June 2006), pp. 539-541:

"The most intense battle was for grain collections, which became literally a life-and death struggle as declining morale, poor weather, and the spread of infestation resulted in grain production declines in 1931 and 1932. Some of the most fascinating archival material in this book describes the intense political lobbying of the Politburo by the party bosses from grain-producing regions as the bosses jockeyed for reduced collections and for grain and seed loans from central funds. Concessions were top secret, and information about them withheld from other regional bosses. Ukraine played the most prominent role as the major grain producer and as a republic directly represented in the Politburo (by P. Kosior)—a privilege that proved costly in 1931, when Kosior maintained Politburo discipline by not lobbying for reductions for Ukraine.

"The authors (particularly Wheatcroft) are the most authoritative experts in the world on grain statistics (see, e.g., their appendix on grain harvests). (....) As famine intensified, collections were shifted to nonfamine regions, collections were halted in Ukraine on February 5, 1933 (212), and the Politburo and secret police (OGPU) introduced draconian food distribution policies that directed food only to those working in the fields and (to their credit) to children and denied food to those already seriously weakened by hunger. Residents of famine regions were prevented by strict administrative controls from fleeing to regions with less famine. Rations to industrial workers were reduced to near-starvation levels as distributions were grudgingly made from the general fund. Davies and Wheatcroft show that Stalin and the Politburo did not manufacture famine to punish class enemies but that they did attempt to control the famine by saving productive farm workers and children while deliberately sacrificing the “nonproductive.”"

--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:12, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Chilling. Reminds me of killing the weak/unproductive in the concentration camps but giving those who could work as slave laborers enough food to survive. This supports that the famine was artificial, the product of policies. No man-made interventions, the peasants would have been able to feed themselves and would not have starved. Also a lot of stuff was declassified since 2006 - Timothy Snyder's work seems to have the most up-to-date info. It is summarized in the article here. Faustian (talk) 14:27, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

In order to conclude that the "majority consensus" is that the famine was man-made we need a source that says something like, "the majority consensus is that the famine was man-made". Presenting the opinions of various scholars is not helpful because we do not know what weight the academic community assigns them. However, if some scholars say it was not man-made means that we cannot say it was, unless we have a source that that opinion represents consensus. TFD (talk) 14:23, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

If we don't use the word "consensus" we can state "most researchers" which is a summary of what is in the body of the article. Doing so does not seem to be a synthesis or original research.Faustian (talk) 14:27, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Per our policy, "the best sources have a professional structure in place for checking or analyzing facts, legal issues, evidence, and arguments; as a rule of thumb, the greater the degree of scrutiny given to these issues, the more reliable the source." The works of the scholars listed by me meet all these criteria, and, independently on bare number of the authors thinking otherwise we cannot ignore the above listed sources.--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:41, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

{ec} @TFD, sorry, Davies and Wheatcroft are not a good source for intent. Gregory's "show..." ignores D&W's explicit disclaimer in their work that they make absolutely no judgements as to acts whose results were detrimental to the populace, nor do they speculate on any possible motivations on such acts. Again, there was no reason to not request international aid, which had been given so freely and generously in earlier famine, so "draconian" as "saving" people is really quite laughable. What workers in the fields were being saved when every bit of grain was requisitioned? What exactly were they tilling? "Residents of famine regions" prevented from leaving the famine region AFAIK extended only to the Ukraine. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 14:33, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Of course they are, and they explained their views as follows:

"Our view of Stalin and the famine is close to that of Robert Conquest, who would earlier have been considered the champion of the argument that Stalin had intentionally caused the famine and had acted in a genocidal manner. In 2003, Dr Conquest wrote to us explaining that he does not hold the view that 'Stalin purposely inflicted the 1933 famine. No. What I argue is that with resulting famine imminent, he could have prevented it, but put "Soviet interest" other than feeding the starving first thus consciously abetting it'." (Stalin and the Soviet Famine of 1932-33: A Reply to Ellman Author(s): R. W. Davies and Stephen G. WheatcroftSource: Europe-Asia Studies, Vol. 58, No. 4 (Jun., 2006), pp. 625-633)

In that sense, Holodomor is not different from the Bengal famine of 1943: British administration could prevent it, but it preferred not to do that being preoccupied with the war with Japan.--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:54, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

PЄTЄRS J V, all that I am asking for is a source that says there is consensus that the famine was man-made, in which case it is a fact and we can report it as such. If on the other hand, it is a majority opinion, with significant opposing dissenting views, then we can say that too. Otherwise, we get bogged down in people selecting their favored works. I have no interest in whether the famine was man-made or an act of God, merely what scholarship says. TFD (talk) 15:16, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

The lede itself currently states there is no consensus. The third paragraph says:

"Scholars disagree on the relative importance of natural factors and bad economic policies as causes of the famine and the degree to which the destruction of the Ukrainian peasantry was premeditated on the part of Stalin. Scholars and politicians using the word Holodomor emphasize the man-made aspects of the famine, arguing that it was genocide; some consider the resultant loss of life comparable to the Holocaust. They argue that the Soviet policies were an attack on the rise of Ukrainian nationalism and therefore fall under the legal definition of genocide. Others claim that the Holodomor was a consequence of the economic problems associated with radical economic changes implemented during the period of Soviet industrialization."

The situation when the first and third paragraphs of the lede contain mutually exclusive statements is ridiculous and that undermine credibility of Wikipedia. I suggest everyone at least to read the article carefully before making changes to it.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:29, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree that the 1st and 3rd paragraphs are necessarily mutually contradictory. Man-made policies made a poor harvest a deadly one; perhaps the third paragraph can be changed to make this clearer.Faustian (talk) 17:44, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

@The Last Angry Man. Yes, the famine was described as "man-made" in most books, especially by Robert Conquest (not mentioning the "Black book", etc.). Hence the name of the famine ("Holodomor", "killing by hunger"). Some other books (e.g. by Figes) are more ambiguous, but tell that the deaths of people were certainly "man-made" (because the military/NKVD forces were used to prevent the movement of population after taking all their food). The controversy here is different. It is about the question if this man-made famine was used to exterminate specifically the Ukrainian population. Here Conquest tells "yes" (based on a number of facts and analysis in his book "The harvest of sorrow"), but Figes tells "no" (without providing any arguments).Biophys (talk) 16:53, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Biophys, I recommend you to read the discussion first. Conquest's position had changed: he does not consider this famine a deliberate act of starvation. With regard to the contribution of human mistakes and governmental policy into the onset of the famine, it was significant. However, Holodomor is not significantly different from many other famines in that respect, for example from the Bengal famine of 1943.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:02, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

And Stalin Genocides which I quoted extensively above says it was deliberate, and wheatcroft reporting on what conquest says is opposite to what you say. He says quite clearly that stalins policys exaggerated the famine. The Last Angry Man (talk) 20:11, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

(I believe you don't mind me to replace you semicolon with the colon). If one source states it was deliberate and another that it was not, we cannot write it was deliberate. Regarding Wheatcroft, please, re-read the quote, and show me where did you see the statement that the famine was deliberately organised. Wheatcroft states that Stalin's policy aggravated the famine, however, that is the thesis I never rejected.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:28, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

That i not what I said, I said your interpretation of what Wheatcroft says regarding Conquest is wrong. Conquest clearly states the famine was caused by stalins failure to help the people. The Last Angry Man (talk) 22:59, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

@TFD earlier on no personal interest, that is quite impossible. Having done quite some study on writing about history, all scholarly historical narrative of quality is written from a (real) point of view (as opposed to what we call that here, i.e., bias), that is, what is the story to be told. Quite frankly, the overly narrow interpretation of "deliberate" and "man made" here on the part of some (to the point where you would think it would require Stalin to stop the rains in the first place) gets in the way of any meaningful discourse, as it is quite clear that the consequences of the famine were squarely directed at the Ukrainians, as stated in a plethora of sources. Once management of the famine (continued grain requisitions, shooting those who violate restrictions on movement, shooting those who take a handful of grain to survive, etc.) involved decisions by authorities, and those decisions formed a pattern particularly and repeatedly inimical to the Ukrainians, that is more than sufficient to support the majority of sources which assign culpability to Stalin and not merely to chance. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 20:48, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

We cannot determine what the sources mean and which are more acceptable and should find a source that explains how the topic is viewed by scholars. Of course scholars write from a point of view (or bias), that is why they write, but they are required to be factual, including when they are explaining the views generally held by scholars. Typically a scholar may write something like, "While the consensus of scholars is x, I will argue y". We then have an rs that x was the consensus view when the paper was written and can look at later sources to see if y has gained any acceptance. TFD (talk) 23:53, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Alexander J. Motyl i of the opinion that the vast majority of scholars view Holodomor as a genocide. "No one, anywhere, today disputes that millions of Ukrainians were starved to death in 1932–1933. No one disputes that the famine was avoidable, and almost no one disputes that it was a crime. Even Viktor Yanukovych calls it an “Armageddon.” And a significant, and growing, number of serious non-Ukrainian scholars, journalists, and other opinion makers consider the Holodomor to have been genocid" and that "the empirical evidence for viewing the Holodomor as an intentional mass killing is overwhelming. If you’re neutral, you’ll be persuaded. If you’re a die-hard skeptic or have a political agenda, on the other hand, no amount of evidence will do the trick."[3] The Last Angry Man (talk) 00:38, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

"And the generally accepted view by States, prominent individuals and international organizations i that the holodomor was a crime against humanity committed by the USSR" (2010) State Accountability Under International Law: Holding States Accountable for a Breach of Jus Cogens Norms (Routledge Research in International Law) Routledge ISBN 978-0415577830 pp112. Sounds like a conensus to me. The Last Angry Man (talk) 00:48, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Per out policy, blogs are not reliable sources. In contrast, a really reliable source describe the origin of the famine as follows:

"The chain of events leading to the famine is well documented, and there is considerable agreement among historians of the subject (Conquest, 1986; Graziosi, 1991; Lewin, 1968, 1985; Nove, 1980, 1989). The crisis had its origin in the end of the New Economic Policy (NEP), and in the "great turn" in 1929 to undertake an ambitious plan of rapid industrialization, which then greatly accelerated the process of urbanization. During the first five-year plan national income, industrial production, and investment were supposed to multiply by a factor of two or three, while consumption was also supposed to increase (Nove, 1989: 145). Industrial workers and urban dwellers, the protagonists of this incredible effort, had to be fed; hence a new system of grain procurement was enacted (in practice, forcible extraction of grain from the peasants with negligible or no compensation." (On the Human Costs of Collectivization in the Soviet Union. Author(s): Massimo Livi-BacciSource: Population and Development Review, Vol. 19, No. 4 (Dec., 1993), pp. 743-766)

So, clearly manmade.Faustian (talk) 01:26, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Re "as it is quite clear that the consequences of the famine were squarely directed at the Ukrainians, as stated in a plethora of sources." See, e.g.

"Studies of the famine of 1932-1933 have focused primarily on its main epicen- ters: Ukraine with its highest absolute losses of human life, Kazakhstan with its highest rates of mortality, and the steppe regions of the Don and Kuban to the north of the Caucasus mountain ridge. The current article is an attempt to broaden the perspective on these tragedies by examining the supply crisis of 1932-1933 and its aftermath in a place well outside these areas - the Urals region. Even in this "non-famine" area death by starvation was ubiquitous in 1932-1933. This underscores the fact that the famine arose from the general problems created by the Soviet regime's agricultural policies of the preceding years rather than from factors specific to the situation in Ukraine, Kazakhstan, or the North Caucasus."(The 1932–1933 Crisis and Its Aftermath beyond the Epicenters of Famine: The Urals RegionAuthor(s): GIJS KESSLERSource: Harvard Ukrainian Studies, Vol. 25, No. 3/4 (Fall 2001), pp. 253-265 Published by: Harvard Ukranian Research Institute)

Re crime against humanity, who argues against that? Stalin took insufficient measures to prevent the famine, but did he organised this famine? The most authoritative sources agree that he didn't.--Paul Siebert (talk) 01:08, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

No needs in blogs. Just read the book: The Harvest of Sorrow: Soviet Collectivization and the Terror-Famine by Robert Conquest. It's all there. @Paul Siebert. No, Conguest never changed his views on the famine as genocidal policy of murder by hunger, as should be clear for anyone who read two his latest books "Reflections on a Ravaged Century (1999)" and "The Dragons of Expectation" (2004).Biophys (talk) 02:37, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

On the page 441 of their "The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931-1933" (2004) Davies, R.W. & Wheatcroft, S.G. cite the Conquest's letter addressed to them from which they concluded that he did change his opinion. And the statement of these two scholars weights much more than your interpretations. I myself saw a recent interview with Conquest that confirms the Davies & Wheatcroft's conclusion.--Paul Siebert (talk) 02:50, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

You are completely misrepresenting what Conquest wrote "No. What I argue is that with resulting famine imminent, he could have prevented it, but put "Soviet interest" other than feeding the starving first thus consciously abetting it'." It is quite clear there that Conquet still holds Stalin accountable. The excessive stealing of food from the populace along with the taking of seed grain and forceful turning back of anyone trying to leave the area are proof enough that it was deliberate. As stated, majority of sources state quite clearly that this famine was a direct result of soviet policy and was then used to crush the populace by starvation. You have one source which uses the tired old excuse of "rapid industrialization" was the cause. Sorry no, we use what majority of sources say, not what one source says. The Last Angry Man (talk) 12:46, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

If "rapid industrialization" was the cause, this means that the famine was manmade. Killing people does not have to be the explicit goal for it to be considered manmade.Faustian (talk) 13:12, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

In a totalitarian state, in which any peace of paper and bread is controled by the government, millions don't die without the acceptance of the government. If the Holodomor was an error, why the responsibles weren't arested and punished the way some Soviet generals were murderd in 1941? There are no proves that the Great Purge was organized to punish the responsibles. They died like party activists in any republic, both very hungry and not so much hungry.Xx236 (talk) 07:07, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Yours above which is in the form of a question appears to erroneously associate crime and punishment as being a causal relationship in a totalitarian society. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 21:12, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

TLAM, Motyl does not say "the vast majority of scholars view Holodomor as a genocide". He writes, "...will the view of the Holodomor as genocide gain the upper hand? I’m betting that the answer is yes...." TFD (talk) 05:01, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Igny has removed the fact that the famine was man made, despite the obvious consensus here on talk that is was both man made and entirely separate from the wider famine in the manner in which it was dealt with. I would appreciate Igny explain why he feels these facts are seemingly irrelevant. The Last Angry Man (talk) 16:03, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Re despite the obvious consensus here on talk that is was both man made and entirely separate from the wider famine in the manner in which it was dealt with. . First, consensus is not so obvious to me, and believe me I would notice if there was some consensus here. Well, there isn't. Secondly, there are number of RS discussion Holodomor as part of the wider Soviet famine. In the previous discussions editors failed to bring any RS claiming that Holodomor wasn't part of the wider famine, if we ignore one fringe claim that there was no famine outside of Ukraine . (Igny (talk) 19:53, 25 September 2011 (UTC))

You seemed to think it was man-made here.... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:55, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't care much about man-made or not. What happened to the consensus "part of the wider famine" and scholarly estimate up to 4mil? (Igny (talk) 20:03, 25 September 2011 (UTC))

At least where "wider famine" is concerned, it is the man-made concentration of the famine's effect specifically on the Ukrainians, exacting a genocidal toll on their population, which speaks to the name "Holodomor." Your position essentially contends it's just the Ukrainians complaining more than anyone else similarly affected. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 16:55, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Man-made character and Soviet famine context

Man-made character is accurately and neutrally described in the latter part of the lead. Direct and unconditional statement that complex and controversial nature of the event was "man-made" is POV-pushing and enters a contradiction with the last paragraph of the lead. Logic fallacy.
Whatever the views on the character of the event, it was the part of a larger one (happened in the same country, at the same time, due to the same reasons), this is highly relevant and should be mentioned. Not mentioning it here is like not mentioning World War II in the article about Eastern Front (World War II). Removing it from the intro could not be justified, especially with summaries like "has its own article, therefore stands on its own as an event, not a part of another". It is a normal practice and expected thing for the article on the part of something to mention the whole. Pure logic of knowledge.
- So, guys, will you support logic afterall or you have special reasons not to do so? GreyHood ^Talk 20:07, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

How about saying 'during' rather than implying it was 'part of' the Soviet famine?--Львівське (talk) 20:11, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

It was part of the Soviet famine. Fact. Perhaps a special part, but this question is addressed later in the lead and in the article. GreyHood ^Talk 20:16, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I am sorry, it was not "during", it was not "concurrent to", it was "part of". Do you have reliable sources which claim otherwise? (Igny (talk) 20:18, 25 September 2011 (UTC))

To claim otherwise (that it was not a "part of") one should claim that Ukrainian SSR was not a part of the USSR. GreyHood ^Talk 20:22, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

First, it's not like anyone's objecting to mentioning the Soviet famine in the lede. But people are, reasonably, objecting to describing the Holodomor as part of the Soviet famine. It's treated as a separate phenomenon in the sources and that's how we should define it and deal with it here. Volunteer Marek 20:28, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

This article treats Holodomor as a separate phenomenon. It is a separate article after all. But since we talk about the definitions... Do you have a source which claims that Holodomor was isolated from the wider Soviet famine? (Igny (talk) 20:33, 25 September 2011 (UTC))

There are many sources which detail how once you crossed the border into the Russian SFSR there was no famine to speak of. It was most definitely isolated from the wider problems. Also, there is no connection to what was happening in Ukraine and, say, the Kazakh SSR.--Львівське (talk) 20:51, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Re: how once you crossed the border into the Russian SFSR there was no famine to speak of To clarify my request, I meant to provide reliable sources accepted in mainstream, not some fringe claims. (Igny (talk) 21:28, 25 September 2011 (UTC))

Kuban was a part of the Russian SFSR. And the causes of the famine in all parts of the country were common: draught + consequences of collectivization + mismanagement. GreyHood ^Talk 21:10, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Part of almost anything could be treated as separate phenomenon, though such treatment could lead to poor or absurd results in knowledge. If some sources write about Holodomor ignoring the larger famine, it's a problem and likely a major drawback of those sources. We are not bound to replicate the illogical approaches. GreyHood ^Talk 20:42, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

The Holocaust article uses 'during' to refer to WW2. How is this any different.--Львівське (talk) 20:48, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

The Holocaust actually started before WWII and was an extermination campaign, not a military campaign or front or battle. Hunger was part of hunger, obviously. GreyHood ^Talk 21:10, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Huh? The extermination campaign started in 1941, two years into WWII. An off-topic here, but probably quite telling as to the level of the discussion. Colchicum (talk) 22:43, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

The Holocaust refers to a specific genocidal event in twentieth-century history: the state-sponsored, systematic persecution and annihilation of European Jewry by Nazi Germany and its collaborators between 1933 and 1945. A wide definition perhaps, but not unacceptable. And the level of discussion is more likely to downgrade because of the needless remarks like one above. GreyHood ^Talk 09:16, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

I'd propose not to argue about obvious things: famine in Ukraine was a part of the Soviet famine because Ukraine was a part of the Soviet Union, and the Soviet famine is generally treated as a single event, not a collection of unrelated or vaguely related events (it is "famine" and not "famines"). Logic is crystal-clear here and there is no need to waste more time on this. GreyHood ^Talk 21:10, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Grey, it is treated as part of the greater famine in Soviet historiography, but not necessarily by scholars or more generally accepted accounts. These are the same historiographical accounts that claim the Holocaust to be a Soviet-wide byproduct of the Great Patriotic War. Famine in the USSR occurring concurrently with the instigated famine in Ukraine are separate matters with separate causes and effects.--Львівське (talk) 22:33, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

But the Holodomor - the subject of this article - is treated separately from the Soviet famine. In sources. Volunteer Marek 22:09, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

So you have found the source I asked you about? (Igny (talk) 22:23, 25 September 2011 (UTC))

What kind of source are you looking for exactly? One that claims Holodomor was "isolated" from the rest of Soviet famine? Well, nobody has made that claim. The claim that was made is that the Holodomor is treated separately from the rest of the Soviet famine in sources. Volunteer Marek 22:32, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

But here is something along the lines of what you're asking for [4]: "two very different and special phenomenon". So even stronger claims are supported in sources. Volunteer Marek 22:35, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

If I understood the snippet correctly, it was talking about treating "national tragedies" separately from the "general framework...". So are we defining the Holodomor as a national tragedy (mourning for the fellow Ukrainians) or the actual famine? If it the former, then it is not a "famine" per se, it is remembering the Ukrainian victims of the famine, and such it is not a part of the wider Soviet famine. Did I understand your claims correctly? (Igny (talk) 22:43, 25 September 2011 (UTC))

@VM. This source (GIJS KESSLERS. The 1932–1933 Crisis and Its Aftermath beyond the Epicenters of Famine: The Urals Region. Harvard Ukrainian Studies, Vol. 25, No. 3/4 (Fall 2001), pp. 253-265 Published by: Harvard Ukranian Research Institute), which seems to be reliable and mainstream, has been presented by me less then a month ago on this talk page. This source contains the statement about "plethora" (sic!) sources that agree that Holodomor was inseparable from the greater Soviet famine, and that it was caused by the same reason. What other evidence do you request?--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:48, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps you should read the full symposium material including Hennadii Boriak, former head of the State Committee on Archives of Ukraine …presents here two essays that serve as an indispensable guide to the state of archival holdings, primarily in Ukraine but also abroad, that treat the history of the 1932-33 famine-genocide in Ukraine.

When the Ukrainian government replaced Boriak by appointing Olha Ginzburg, a Communist former deputy to the Rada, “one of the most egregious acts of the new head was to shut down the website on the holodomor that had been painstakingly assembled under Boriak’s leadership; Ginzburg did not deem the famine to be an appropriate topic for Ukrainian history. Such an attitude was characteristic of her views of the Soviet period more broadly, and Stalinism more specifically. Boriak’s essays are a tribute to the determined work of thousands of Ukrainian archivists who have accomplished the invaluable task of cataloguing tens of thousands of newly available documents, including photo and film footage from the period, nearly all previously unknown because they had been held in restrictive access collections until the late 1980s." per [5]. It is interesting that you found an article which was specifically aimed at material outside Ukraine, and elided the material in the same publication which specifically dealt with Holodomor as "famine-genocide." Cheers -- I trust you will fully include those articles next time in the discussion, rather than the one small part of the symposium you chose now. Collect (talk) 23:02, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I looked through the materials Boryak presented. They are impressive, however, he provided no comparison with the situation in non-Ukrainian territories. The main his thesis is that since the population was treated brutally, Holodomor was unique. However, the author cited by me expresses the opposite opinion, namely, although the epicenter of the famine was in Ukraine, it was not directed against the Ukrainians specifically. What our policy tells about a situation like this?--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:36, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

It might be beneficial to place Holodomor in appropriate context. Those are numbers from the book "Harvest of Sorrow" by Robert Conquest published by Oxford University Press (page 306):

Peasant dead 1930-1937 - 11 million

Arrested in this period dying in camps later 3.5 million

Total: 14.5 million

Of these:

Dead as a result of dekulakization: 6.5 million

Dead in Kazakh catastrophe 1 million

Dead in 1932-1933 famine: 7 million: 5 million in the Ukraine (this is Holodomor); 1 million in the North Caucasus, and 1 million elsewhere. Biophys (talk) 00:45, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Harwest of Sorrow is somewhat outdated, the total number of excess deaths in the USSR (1917-91) per Werth was 15 million. The total camp mortality during the whole Gulag period was less than 3.5 million.--Paul Siebert (talk) 01:02, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, is that 1917-1991? if so then your source is way out. Estimates for Stalin's rule are 15-millions alone. The Last Angry Man (talk) 01:07, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

I am not aware of any mass excess deaths after Stalin. Regarding Werth, you are among the most vehement advocates of the BB. Did you read it?--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Amusing, Are you saying there were no killings after Stalin's death? The estimates for those who died under Stalin is 15-20 millions, what of those who were killed before and after his rule? Try an comment on content, and not make wild guess`s over what I may or may not have read. The Last Angry Man (talk) 10:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Re:Did you read it? If I don't say that, probably no one else will. Nice one, Paul!.(Igny (talk) 03:29, 26 September 2011 (UTC))

Graziosi

I'm going to move this comment by Paul to a separate section because the discussion (and others like it) has input from other editors and hence tends to go off subject:

@VM. This source (GIJS KESSLERS. The 1932–1933 Crisis and Its Aftermath beyond the Epicenters of Famine: The Urals Region. Harvard Ukrainian Studies, Vol. 25, No. 3/4 (Fall 2001), pp. 253-265 Published by: Harvard Ukranian Research Institute), which seems to be reliable and mainstream, has been presented by me less then a month ago on this talk page. This source contains the statement about "plethora" (sic!) sources that agree that Holodomor was inseparable from the greater Soviet famine, and that it was caused by the same reason. What other evidence do you request?

The source is actually an article by Andrea Graziosi entitled "The Soviet 1931-1933 Famines and the Ukrainian Holodomor: Is a New Interpretation Possible,and What Would Its Consequences Be?". As far as I can tell it has been quoted in several other works, including the one by Luciuk and Gezler which is the snippet I quoted above, and apparently by someone else in an article you cite above (it might have been a "Response" or something like that but so far I have not been able to find it). I can email you the original article if you want.

First, note that the author distinguishes between "The Soviet 1931-1933 Famine" and the "Ukrainian Holodomor" even in the title, which clearly implies a certain amount of separation of topics.

Second, best that I can tell by looking at the archives of the talk page of this article, the article has been quoted in different contexts. Specifically, Graziosi does go quite some ways to emphasize that "this" was a man made famine, which is probably the context it came up in before here on Wikipedia. The relevant quote from the article here is:

"In this light it is startling to recall how little we knew before Conquest's book appeared.4 In the best case, historians such as Naum Jasny and Alec Nove did speak of a "man-made famine" (which was still being treated as a single event) without, however, researching it fully and generally ignoring its national aspect"

Note that 1) she emphasizes the fact that historians have called it a "man-made famine" (and this was the the best-case scenario in the research up to that point) and that 2) the author herself notes - objects - to the fact that it "was still being treated as a single event" which was still not "research(ed) fully and generally ignoring its national aspect". So both the fact that it was man-made (and that other sources treat it as such) and that the Holodomor (it's Ukrainian, "national" aspect) needs to be treated separately are both right there.

At this point the author is still giving an outline of the existing literature on the topic, but then she transfers into establishing a contribution of her own:

In order to formulate this new interpretation, we need first to define the object of our investigation. As should be clear by now, we are in fact dealing with what it would be more correct to call, on a pan-Soviet level, the 1931-1933 famines, which had of course common causes and a common background, but included at least two very different and special phenomena: the Kazakhstan famine-cum-epidemics of 1931-1933 and the Ukrainian-Kuban (the latter area, though belonging to the Russian republic's province of Northern Caucasus, being mostly inhabited by Ukrainians) Holodomor of late 1932 to early 1933.

So the author defines the subject. She (I think it is a she, someone correct me if I'm wrong) does acknowledge the "pan-Soviet level" of the "famines" (I don't see anything about a "plethora of famines", in fact, the word "plethora" does not appear in the article at all) but her aim is very clearly to separate out the Holodomor as a "very different and special phenomena". She does connect Ukraine and Kuban, and looking through the archives of this talk page this is of course an issue that has been brought up. My sense here is that in the past some editors tried to use the fact that the Kuban wasn't technically part of Ukraine under Soviet rule, but at the same time that the events there were very similar to what happened in ... let's call it "other parts of Ukraine", to try and argue that it was "part of a Soviet famine" (because it happened in Kuban! Which wasn't technically speaking part of Ukraine! It was part of Soviet Union! So there! It was just a general Soviet famine! Ukrainians go home!). I regard these kinds of tactics as essentially intellectually dishonest, though there probably is some nuanced way to treat the whole Kuban vs. rest of Ukraine issue fairly.

Let's get back to this particular article then. The "man-made" aspect of it is pretty clear AND emphasized by this source, as well as others, which is what I've been saying all along. Yes, in some sense all modern famines are "man-made" but exactly because the "man-made" nature of THIS PARTICULAR one has been denied/hidden by some Stalin-apologists (go back in the archives and see where all these discussions originated - two words "Jacob Peters", two more words "banned editor") is why the sources emphasize the man-made nature of it. So we need it in there.

Likewise, the fact that the Holodomor was different from the general Soviet famine is also in this source - though of course it acknowledges the other ones. We should do likewise. Like I said above, there's no one here who wants to remove any mention of the "Soviet famine" from the lede. The question is about the first sentence where THIS topic is defined. And putting "it was part of" in that is POV and unrepresentative of sources.

My suggestion with regard to this later issue is to define the Holodomor in the first sentence as specific to Ukraine. Then somewhere else in the lede we do need to mention that it occurred concurrently with the Soviet famine and that some writers (let's find some mainstream ones here) treat it as part of the Soviet famine. So basically NOT "part of" in first sentence, but "considered by some to be part of" somewhere else in the lede.

Volunteer Marek 01:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

I am not sure you understand the article correctly. Graziosi subdivides all scholars onto two categories, A (who believed Holodomor was deliberately designed and performed to kill Ukrainians) and B (who understated the difference in manifestations of famine in Ukraine and in the USSR as whole). The Graziosi's viewpoint is in the middle: she disagrees with the thesis that Holodomor was an absolutely separate event, and that it was designed to exterminate Ukrainians, but she also argues that it definitely had some specific features, and the Stalin's anti-peasant actions became anti-Ukrainian in Ukraine and Kuban after late 1932. In other words, she agrees that Holodomor was a part of the Soviet famine, however, she argue that it was a rather specific part. Similarly, she argues that Holodomor was not genocide if a strict definition of genocide is used, but it was definitely a genocide from the point of view of more relaxed definition. The source is well written, contains persuasive arguments, and performs a good overview of the existing studies of all major Holodomor scholars. I support its usage in the article, however, I do not see how my edit contradict to what it says.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:04, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Uh, I'm pretty sure I understand the article just fine. Keep in mind that Graziosi is responding to how the subject was treated before - in a wrong way, ignored. The middle part of your comment - I don't think there's a disagreement there, though at the same time it's pretty clear that she wants to emphasize 1) the man-made nature of the famine and 2) it's particular Ukrainian character. Basically she's saying that yes, before the opening up of the Soviet archives, the topic was treated in a way ... very much similar to how certain editors want to have it treated here on Wikipedia. But since then there has been much more scholarly work done.

Now, nobody - certainly not me - has brought up the question of whether this was a "genocide" or not. So why are you even bringing it up? Nobody's arguing about it so that's a total red herring. You want to argue about this, start a new section. In fact, the very fact that you're trying to push the discussion on to this other, unrelated track, does sort of suggest that you have either not read or not understood the article yourself.

Above I referred to the parts of the article which deal directly with the two issues under discussion here - whether it was "man made" and whether it deserves a definition that's separate from a general "Soviet famine". I provided text from the source in that regard. You haven't done nothing of the kind, just made some kind of weird unsubstantiated claim that I have not "underst(ood) the article correctly". Do better or leave it alone. Volunteer Marek 03:47, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Re genocide, forgot it. I am not a novice in this dispute, and, since the genocide issue appears again and again here, I mentioned it simply automatically.

Re quote, for some reason, I cannot cut-and-paste a text from this article, and I am too lazy to type the text. Graziosi does not claim the subject was treated in a wrong way, she just reconciles two different viewpoints: the causes of the famine were similar throughout the USSR as whole, except Kazakhstan, but development of the famine (and, partially, the policy of the authorities) in different parts was different (p. 101). Therefore, as I already said, Holodomor was a part of the Soviet famine (as the lede states), however, a very specific part (hence a separate article).--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:17, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm, if Graziosi "reconciles" the two different viewpoints then she does so very much at the expanse of B people (pan-Soviet)and in a way very much favorable to the A people (national). She outlines what she does in three steps:

1) A very clear distinction between the general phenomenon and its republic-level or regional manifestations should therefore be introduced in the Soviet case. However, most "A" supporters are in fact speaking specifically of the Holodomor, while many of the "B" proponents think on a pan-Soviet scale. If we analytically distinguish what they are doing, we end up discovering that in many, albeit not all, ways they are correct in their respective domains. - separate out the Soviet case from the national cases. This step looks like the "reconciliation" you're referring to and could justify some kind of "part of" in the lede. Though since the purpose here is to distinguish rather than unite I'd still think it would be better not to have it in the first, definition, sentence of the article.

2) The second step toward a new interpretation consists of yet another analytical distinction. We must separate the 193 1-1932 "spontaneous" famines - they too, of course, were direct, if undesired, consequences of choices made in 1928-1929 - from the post-September 1932 Famine, which took on such terrible features not least because of human decision. - step 1 was a spatial distinction, here we have the temporal one. Note that here she again notes the "man-made"-ness of the famine.

3) Finally, the third step we need to take is to gather and combine useful elements from both "A" and "B" and drop their unsatisfactory parts - sure. The way I read this, in light of what the remainder of the rest of the article contains is as essentially here saying "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater". The paragraph that follows elaborates on this by basically saying that the "A" people sometimes have a too-simplistic view of things, particularly in arguing that the Holodomor was specifically designed/planned to squash Ukrainians, but are not entirely wrong since what happened, according to Grasci, is that the origins of the famine had other causes, but Stalin quickly realized that it could be used towards those ends national-specific ends.

The rest of the article, after she outlines this method, is pretty much all about how Ukraine, in this time period (late 1932+) was different than other Soviet famines. Yes, the author does argue that it wasn't a case of Stalin sitting down and saying, "ok, how can I get those Ukrainians, I know, I'll start a famine", but other than agreeing with the "A people" here everything else she writes supports the idea that the Holodomor was different and was in fact man made.

There's lots of choice quotes I could pull from that work (in fact, maybe make a two column table with one column having "supports the man-made description" and the other with "supports the unique aspect of Holodomor") but I'll just throw out one more for now:

The adoption of the term Holodomor seems therefore legitimate, as well as necessary (my emphasis, VM), to mark a distinction between the pan-Soviet phenomenon of 1931-1933 and the Ukrainian Famine after the summer of 1932

Because the argument is nuanced, some of our disagreement is over the emphasis that author gives to these various nuances. But I would've thought that my proposal to keep the "part of" out of the first sentence but still in the lede would be taken as reasonable. Volunteer Marek 16:51, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Full protection

I have fully protected the page per a request at WP:RFPP because of the edit warring with almost no discussion over possible changes to the lead. Since you may be able to solve this in a day, or it may take six months, I've made the full protection indefinite. Once you come to a consensus here, let me know and I'll drop the full protection. If you can't solve it amongst yourselves, consider using either the dispute resolution noticeboard or an RfC. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:26, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Ay, that's fine. The only thing is, there has been discussion (umm.... see above) so the justification that "with almost no discussion" seems inappropriate. Hell, I myself have not made a single edit to the article, but all I've done is "discuss". So... I'm at a bit of a loss where this is coming from. Volunteer Marek 02:39, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Let me guess, you were too busy to actually bother reading the talk page, so you went with the "me admin! me protect Wikipedia!" right? Next time, spend some time with it, like the people who are busy discussing the issue on this very page actually do (they look up sources, search for information ... so an admin coming in out of nowhere can do us the courtesy of reading through the discussion first). Sigh. Whatever. Volunteer Marek 02:42, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant that in the current sequence of edits and reverts, there was no discussion here (like, "Hey, stop that, you, we already settled this, look at these discussions in the archive"). I do note that there are some links to past discussions in edit summaries, but, as you point out, there's been a lot of them. All I know is, is that edit warring is inherently bad for articles. It doesn't produce a useful solution, and it disrupts the article. I also know that an admin can't do anything other than protect the article. It's not like I can walk in here and rule by fiat "Yes, this is consensus, so this is the right version." Like I said--if you can demonstrate that the consensus is clear, then the protection can be lifted. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:47, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Question on the last batch of edits

User:Lvivske approached me on my talk page about the version I protected. As per standard procedure, in cases where it's not exactly clear what the "pre-dispute version" is (especially since there may have been some unrelated productive edits in the midst of the main edit war), I just protected the most current version of the page, knowing full well it's certainly the WP:WRONGVERSION. However, Lvivske pointed out that just before I protected the page, User:Paul Seibert made some rather significant changes to the lead. From what I can see so far, these are not the actual edits that started off the edit war, but do seem to be related (though how closely related is not clear to me). Lviviske recommended that I revert just the last three edits by Paul Seibert. What do other editors think--is there a consensus that those edits should be kept out, at least for the duration of the full protection? If there is no consensus to remove them, then they'll just have to stay and be part of the mess you all have to work out. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:14, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Revert. If they are determined to be acceptable by consensus, then they can be added back in. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 05:38, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
Revert, Paul removed 'man made' in bad faith, re-added the contested 'part of the soviet famine' part that the edit war was about, and then added the egregious line of "when the population of the Soviet Union suffered from the GREAT FAMINE caused by the consequences of Soviet agrarian reforms and food requisitions, which were exacerbated by poor weather conditions" which not only uses the Soviet propaganda term "Great famine" but heavily pushes the Soviet slanted POV here.--Львівське (talk) 06:04, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
- The Soviet propaganda concealed the famine, not publicized it, and it would be more correct to say that the term "Great famine" belongs more to the anti-Soviet propaganda, if to any propaganda at all. And Paul, in fact, accurately describes the main reasons behind the hunger (only the weight and sequence of those reasons is contested, not the fact of existence of each one). Also, due to the usage of the "Great famine" and putting reforms and food requisitions as a main reason, Paul's version has more of traits of the anti-Soviet slanted POV, than otherwise. GreyHood ^Talk 09:52, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
Revert The major changes are not per consensus or any try at consensus. See also where Paul chose one article out of a symposium where a major article refers specifically to this as a "famine-genocide" which belies his choice of sources entirely. Cheers. Collect (talk) 08:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
- This section is a try to find consensus. No serious arguments against logic were proposed. GreyHood ^Talk 09:34, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
Revert per the three editors above, and there is an undoubted consensus the famine was man made on this talk page, even PS has said this. The Last Angry Man (talk) 09:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
- Paul and other editors here argued that most or all 20th century famines were man-made to some extent and therefore there is no particular need to emphasize the character of famine in this case. GreyHood ^Talk 09:34, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

And in that they are entirely wrong. This famine was caused entirely by excessive theft of grain, the people were denied relief, they were turned back at the borders or shot. Please show me another famine were those in charge actually stopped the starving people from leaving? Or were relief was denied? Or were the guy in charge used the famine as a means to crush perceived opposition? The Last Angry Man (talk) 10:28, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Keep. The essense of those recent edits is discussed at Talk:Holodomor#Man-made character and Soviet famine context. Reverting them means reverting to a version containing a logical fallacy (contradiction of two parts in the intro) and a major omission of larger context of the Soviet famine of 1932–1933 (it is a logical, natural and expected thing to mention it in the lead, like mentioning World War II in the lead of Eastern Front (World War II)). The editors voting revert here didn't presented sources or some strong reasoning why should we go against the obvious logic and usual practices of writing articles and presenting material. If the decision to go against simple logic would be taken as a result of voting, this would be really pity for Wikipedia. GreyHood ^Talk 09:34, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
- Please actually read what I said. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 13:39, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
  - I don't see your comments addressing the logic problems at this page. If the vote or consensus violates logic, this is not a way to go on and the issue will not become less conflict-prone. GreyHood ^Talk 16:32, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
    - That's because I am not talking about logic problems. I am talking about maintaining the WP:STATUSQUO until we can come to an agreement as to what the new version will be. Consensus can change, but just because you happen to like Paul's addition does not automatically make it the new consensus. Look around you; clearly there is disagreement. But that is why I applied for a full-protect: so we can settle the disagreement over the previous consensus version as determined by last year's War of the Words (see archives) without simultaneously trying to edit-war over each other's POVs on the article itself. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:10, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
      - Procedurally, this article is not on editing restriction and new consensus can be reached by BRD. So we are here to discuss the facts and logic, not the procedure. Old consensus is too old, and new interested editors, new arguments and new problems to the article mean we need to move further. GreyHood ^Talk 21:45, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
        You continue to miss the point entirely. The reversion of Paul's addition is not an endorsement of the factual/logical veracity of the WP:STATUSQUO. Several editors have voiced dissent against the previous consensus. I recognise that. That is what we are trying to address here on the talkpage during this period of full-protection. Paul's addition is contentious; you can't just decide that since you find it to be better, it is somehow automatically the new "consensus". There has not been sufficient discussion to establish a solution that can be considered "consensus", regardless of how much you harp on "facts and logic". The simple fact of the matter is, your "facts and logic" are not everyone's "facts and logic". Do not call the "battle" in your favour when the fighting is not yet over (if you'll excuse the WP:BATTLEFIELD metaphor). ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:55, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
        Your remarks on my part are rather strange. I'm not presenting the edits which I support as if they are the consensus already. It is just a version proposed and disussed on this talk page in several threads. I'm fully aware and can clearly see that unfortunately not everyone here is quick to support the basic logic here. GreyHood ^Talk 22:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
        Your insistence on retaining Paul's edits in the article as it stands now is indicative that you regard it as a "consensus" version. It isn't. It is a disputed proposal which can and should be discussed here on the talkpage. However, in order to resolve the purported POV issues that triggered this mess, we should retain the WP:STATUSQUO, i.e. the pre-existing consensus, before we settle on a new one. That way, it is clear what the original wording was and how it needs to be changed to reflect the new consensus. Paul's proposal is a work in progress; the status quo is a final version, albeit a flawed one based on opinions given by certain editors. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 22:35, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
Keep Reverting the change, which I see as a compromise solution would mean reinserting the controversial term "man-made", the very thing which started this edit war. The insertion of that term was against consensus at the time. Personally, I do not care if the rather clumsy term "man-made" makes it to the lede, however I find the compromise solution by Paul much better than whatever it was before. (Igny (talk) 11:12, 26 September 2011 (UTC))
Revert - I actually could live with Paul's version (though I would make some changes), which seems to have been made in good faith, though I lean towards the previous version.Faustian (talk) 16:42, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

A note to admin Per WP:VOTE, I suggest you to make a decision not by counting votes, but by analysing the strength of the arguments; it is also desirable to disregard the opinions that a re based on a wrong rationale. Thus, Львівське's "Paul removed 'man made' in bad faith, re-added the contested 'part of the soviet famine'" is against WP:AGF, and is based the wrong rationale: the statement 'part of the soviet famine' was not "re-added" by me simply because it was in the previous version" is the name for a man-made famine that took place on the territory of the Ukrainian SSR in 1932 and 1933, part of the Soviet famine of 1932–1933."]. In addition, his statement about my words: "which not only uses the Soviet propaganda term "Great famine" but heavily pushes the Soviet slanted POV here." are deeply misleading, because the term "Great famine" is used by most western scholars writing on this subject (Ellman, Wheatcroft, Conquest, Davies, Rosefielde et al, see the works cited in the article) and not by Soviet propaganda. In addition, can anybody explain me what other reasons, apart from "the consequences of Soviet agrarian reforms and food requisitions, which were exacerbated by poor weather conditions" caused Holodomor, according to mainstream scholars? I already provided the quote that summarises these reasons. I can do that again:

"The chain of events leading to the famine is well documented, and there is considerable agreement among historians of the subject (Conquest, 1986; Graziosi, 1991; Lewin, 1968, 1985; Nove, 1980, 1989). The crisis had its origin in the end of the New Economic Policy (NEP), and in the "great turn" in 1929 to undertake an ambitious plan of rapid industrialization, which then greatly accelerated the process of urbanization. During the first five-year plan national income, industrial production, and investment were supposed to multiply by a factor of two or three, while consumption was also supposed to increase (Nove, 1989: 145). Industrial workers and urban dwellers, the protagonists of this incredible effort, had to be fed; hence a new system of grain procurement was enacted (in practice, forcible extraction of grain from the peasants with negligible or no compensation." (On the Human Costs of Collectivization in the Soviet Union. Author(s): Massimo Livi-Bacci Population and Development Review, Vol. 19, No. 4 (Dec., 1993), pp. 743-766)

"By the summer of 1932, partly as a result of previous Soviet policies, and partly as a result of bad weather, there had been two bad harvests in succession. Although strenuous efforts had been made to build up reserve stocks, these efforts had failed completely (see Davies et al. 1995, pp. 642-657). There is no doubt that grain was in very short supply by the spring and summer of 1932. "(Stalin and the Soviet Famine of 1932-33: A Reply to Ellman Author(s): R. W. Davies and Stephen G. Wheatcroft Europe-Asia Studies, Vol. 58, No. 4 (Jun., 2006), pp. 625-633)

Taking into account that the last two authors are among the leading experts in grain statistics (Paul Gregory. Source: The Journal of Modern History, Vol. 78, No. 2 (June 2006), pp. 539-541), their opinion is hard to deny. My conclusion is that the Львівське's opinion is based on wrong rationale and should not be counted.
Collect's opinion is based on the statement that I chosen "chose one article out of a symposium where a major article refers specifically to...". I doubt Collect read the sources he mentions. There were no "main article" he is talking about. The article I used was published in the "Harvard Ukrainian Studies" journal (Vol. 25, No. 3/4 (Fall 2001), pp. 253-265), and there were no major or minor articles there.
The The Last Angry Man's rationale is that there is a consensus about "man-made". However, since different levels of "man-madeness" may exist, my text simply explains what does it term means it this particular case: all serious sources agree that it was not deliberately organised, but was a result of the Soviet agrarian reforms (which were started to provide a base for industrialisetion).
The only acceptable opinion is the Lothar's point of view that is in accordance with "BRD". However, nothing prevents us to start a discussion right now, and, by the way, does Lothar have any concrete objections in addition to general "BRD"?--Paul Siebert (talk) 13:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

My "opinion is based on wrong rationale and should not be counted."? For cyin' out loud...--Львівське (talk) 17:30, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Genuine note to admin: Paul rather misleadingly says there were no other articles in the Harvard symposium -- which is not only errant, it is misleading and false. The HURI cite I gave makes this clear. [6]

Hunger by Design: The Great Ukrainian Famine and Its Soviet Context / Edited by Halyna Hryn

The years 2002–2003 marked the seventieth anniversary of the man-made famine inflicted on Ukraine and surrounding areas by Stalin's Soviet leadership. The Harvard Ukrainian Research Institute commemorated the anniversary with a symposium in October 2003 titled "The Ukrainian Terror-Famine of 1932–1933: Revisiting the Issues and the Scholarship Twenty Years after the HURI Famine Project." This volume contains some of the papers presented at the symposium (previously published in Harvard Ukrainian Studies volume 25, no. 3/4), including Sergei Maksudov's large-scale demographic study drawing on available documents of the era; Niccolò Pianciola's description of the denomadization famine in Kazakhstan from 1931 to 1933; and Gijs Kessler's study of events in the Urals region from the same period. Also included in this volume are a foreword by Lubomyr Hajda, Andrea Graziosi's remarks on the present state of Famine scholarship and how it addresses the question of genocide, Hennadii Boriak's assessment of the current state of source material, and an essay by George Grabowicz on the legacy of the Famine in Ukraine today. This book offers new contributions to scholarship on the Famine as well as a tribute to those scholars who first broke ground in the field in the 1980s.

Which seems to bear out that a number of articles were presented at the symposium and were published in the exact journal which Paul seems to think has nothing but the single article which is specifically about the outside effects of the famine-genocide. I trust this quote from the HURI web page is sufficiently clear to make the point. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:41, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

I also submit that the HURI specific assessment of man-made rather scronches any counter-arguments. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:44, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Re "Paul rather misleadingly says there were no other articles in the Harvard symposium" Can you read? I wrote "There were no "main article" he is talking about. The article I used was published in the "Harvard Ukrainian Studies" journal (Vol. 25, No. 3/4 (Fall 2001), pp. 253-265), and there were no major or minor articles there." Obviously, that means that there were no "senior" or "minor" authors on the simposium, and all articles had the same weight. In addition, the article Collect refers to contains no claims about the absence of famine outside Ukraine.--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:04, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Burger King time .... did you miss Gijs Kessler's study of events in the Urals region from the same period.? mentioned in nice bold letters? The fact is that HURI uses the term "man-made" sans qualifiers, and Kessler's article was restricted to the Urals thus the fact he did not dwell on Ukraine is a D'oh moment. Cheers while you try finding an actual arguemnt here. Collect (talk) 17:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

The Kessler's article was devoted to Urals to demonstrate that the same events as Holodomor occurred simultaneously in other parts of the USSR, although their scale was smaller. He calls Ukraine an "epicentre" of famine, however, he demonstrates that other parts was affected too. What else do you need?--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:34, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Revert. Paul's edit changes the entire characterization of the event, from removing "man-made", which with respect to the Ukraine includes: confiscation of all grain (the USSR continued to export--whereas in the prior famine the USSR requested and received massive international relief); confiscation of all Ukrainian family foodstores, leaving them with nothing to eat; and, once there was nothing to eat, forcibly preventing Ukrainians (in particular) from leaving the Ukraine famine area. That the drought, et al. was not centered exactly within the frontiers of majority Ukrainian settlement does not justify the meme that "everyone, not just Ukrainians" were affected, as the Ukrainians, by explicit policy, were made to suffer particularly. That is in line with my edit to the lede which indicates that one cannot say for sure how much of the catastrophe in the Ukraine was premeditated (i.e., let's starve them) versus opportunistic (we now have circumstances which facilitate our ability to starve them), neither of those in any way implying not man-made, an edit which I believe Paul Siebert supported. Unfortunate natural catastrophe in which wide areas of the USSR suffered, nothing special about the Ukraine or the fate of the Ukrainians, 'twas tragic but unavoidable, is Soviet historiography, plain and simple. The empire is dead, its legends live on. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 16:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
Comment. The conversation over sources would go much better without editors engaging in inflammatory labeling of accounts which are less than kind regarding the Soviet legacy as anti-Soviet agitprop. Mention something specific you regard as propaganda, demonstrate majority support (outside of nationalist-patriotic Russian historiography) in reputable sources for the version of history which counters the alleged "propaganda," and we can have a constructive conversation. Otherwise such allegations are only acrimonious histrionics. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 16:36, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
(ec)Note to admin Re the argument over man made. I believe policy is to say what majority of sources say. I should like those who are arguing for the removal of man made to cite a minimum of ten sources which state unequivocally that the Holodomor was not man made. I am more than happy to produce sources which state it was man made as a direct action of Stalin's policy's and that he used this famine to bludgeon the Ukraine into submission. The Last Angry Man (talk) 16:40, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Taking into account that plethora of sources are available that confirm that Holodomor was not designed to exterminate Ukrainians specifically, it would be hard to demonstrate that consensus exists that the opposite was true.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:04, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

- Nobody here argues that the hunger was not at least partially "man made". The problem is that the disagreement over the scale of this man-madeness exists, and that the term is ambiguous (was it intentionally man-made or an unintentional consequences of previous actions?). GreyHood ^Talk 16:51, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
  - Better for article discussion, but when you confiscate all the grain and continue exporting, you can contend Stalin needed the money. When you confiscate all the foodstores and foodstuffs a family has in their possession leaving them with nothing, you can contend Stalin had more important mouths to feed. Where I see the problem is that editors who look upon the Soviet legacy more kindly tend to emphasize reasons and justifications (with bad results for the Ukrainians) while editors who look upon the Soviet legacy less kindly tend to judge intent by the inevitable results of deliberate actions. Let's not forget shooting children for stealing a handful of grain if they could find some. As a parallel of this Soviet-legacy-ameliorating logic I would mention the example of Paul Siebert just recently contending that the Soviet goal "in words" to liberate the world from Fascism in the GPW was "more noble" than the real goal of the conscripted Latvian and other Baltic Waffen SS desperately holding out hope for the opportunity to drive both Russian and German invaders from their homelands as they had once before to achieve independence. Editors are completely entitled to buy into historical Soviet-sycophantasies, but that does not qualify for an encyclopedia. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 17:21, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

No soapboxing, Peters, please. And do not misinterpret my words: I compared "declared" goals of Communists and the Latvians, and I never did a comparison you inscribe to me. By implicitly accusing me in comparing apples with oranges you simply insult me.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:28, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, you did indeed compare apples and oranges and contend apples were more noble.

Soviets: Tried to conquer Baltics after WWI, failed. Attempted a putch in Estonia in 1924. Invaded its neutral neighbors, slaughtered and deported their citizens. Following Hitler, "liberation" resulted in more slaughter and deportation of their neutral neighbors' citizens and half a century of totalitarianism as second class inhabitants of their homelands.
Baltics: Drove out the Bolsheviks once to establish independence. Hoped to do so again. Held out (Latvians) in Courland until the end of the war.

(Paraphrased) "Well, on paper, Stalin was a good guy with bigger goals"... really, I don't know how you write this sort of stuff and keep a straight face. And when you're called on it, you turn that around into an attack on your honor.

To your "Taking into account that plethora of sources are available that confirm that Holodomor was not designed to exterminate Ukrainians specifically, it would be hard to demonstrate that consensus exists that the opposite was true.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:04, 26 September 2011 (UTC)", your logic is no better. By your standard, "designed..." would require that:

Stalin ruminates over the pesky Ukrainians and that the weather hasn't been that good and yields are down.
"Вот!! We will blame the society-wrecking Ukrainians for any and all reduced harvests or crop failures."
"We will confiscate and export grain, no point in the Ukrainians eating away at our balance of trade."
"Instead of requesting international aid which was given to us so generously in the past, we will suppress evidence of famine."
"We'll confiscate all their food as well, there are worthier mouths to feed."
"And once we strip them of their ability to feed and sustain themselves, we'll cordon them off and shoot anyone trying to leave."
"Oh, and if we leave anything edible behind and someone takes it to eat, shoot them too: men, women, children."
And it would require that not a single person identifiable with non-Ukrainians be affected by Soviet famine policy.

Your argument that sources with proof of such "design" (explicitly plan, then execute) do not exist is just a wee bit POVish, no? While I might exaggerate only very slightly for rhetorical effect, it is evident to me that your contention belies your inability to accept any narrative which assigns culpability to Stalin and to those carrying out his policies. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 23:39, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Revert - As I mentioned somewhere above, this whole issue of "man-made" and "part of Soviet famine" had already been discussed many many many times before and the general consensus was that "yes, it was man-made, but not necessarily genocide (by strict definition of the term)" and "it was a separate phenomenon though of course there was a wider context". As such I think this latest re-hash of debates which should have already been settled is just nothing but time wasting. Now, Paul didn't initiate this latest round, but he did jump in (as did others) once it began and the three edits under discussion here were made in that vein. They should be reverted until there's serious consensus to change the article in such a way. Volunteer Marek 16:56, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

You miss the fact that the statement "part of Soviet famine" was added not by me, it had been there before.

You also totally miss the fact that I replaced the ambiguous term "man made" with more detailed explanations of the reasons, most of them (collectivisation and food requisition) were a directl reference to the policy of the authorities: in other words, that is not a negation of the fact that famine was man-made, but an explanation of concrete steps of concrete authorities that lead to a disaster. I think you will not claim that these facts are incorrect, or that I missed anything. Therefore, the dispute is just about the style. My style is more neutral and encyclopaedic: I present the facts, and I let a reader to draw conclusions by himself. What is wrong with than?--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:04, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

The term "man-made" may be seen as ambiguous but it is a term used by the sources. It is a succinct term which captures one of the important aspects of the famine - which is precisely why there's so much argument over it here (and why sources refer to it so much). Now, I don't have a problem with your enumeration of specific causes (though proper weight should be given to these - again, according to Graziosi, had Stalin not used the famine for political purposes then "at most" hundreds of thousands would have died rather than millions, so the amount that can be attributed to "exacerbated by poor weather conditions" is a very small fraction of the total) but I don't see a need to remove the "man-made" either. Keep both "man-made" where it was, and enumerate the specific cnditions.

Also, I think removing "Ukrainian" from the designation of the victims is splitting hairs. And the source (EB) specifically refers to the Ukrainians. Of course in the Holodomor (NOT the general Soviet famine) there were some non-Ukrainian victims of starvation. But again, the vast majority of victims were in fact Ukrainian, and Stalin's policy was directed specifically against Ukrainian peasants. Volunteer Marek 17:36, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

What is the need of "man-made" (used by some sources) if that fact is already clear from the list of the causes?

Re Graziosi, I believe, I included "food requisitions" into the list of the causes.

Usually, the term "Ukrainians" is used by the sources like EB to describe the population of the republic as whole (the Europeans do not separate nationality and citizenship). Therefore, to avoid ambiguity, it would be useful to either omit this word, or to replace it with something that means "population as whole"--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:50, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Paul, that simply isn't true. Maybe of today's nation-states where ethnonym and denonym are blurred for reasons of practicality; but at no point do scholars ever refer to "Ukrainians" in the sense of "Soviet citizens residing in the Ukrainian SSR". No one, anywhere, any place, would refer to ethnically Russian, Soviet citizens as "Ukrainians" because they were living in the UkrSSR. Would this make Krushchev 'Ukrainian' by your bizzarro definition?--Львівське (talk) 18:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Do you imply that Holodomor was directed against the ethnic Ukrainian only?--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:44, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Seeing as how it was a tool that Stalin used to deal with the "national question" - here the nation being Ukrainians - then to a significant extent, yes. So not "only" but "mostly". Again, that's the Holodomor, not the other Soviet famines. Volunteer Marek 20:10, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

So only Ukrainian rural population suffered during Holodomor?--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:26, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Ok, cut it out. These are not good-faithed questions, Socrates. For starters drop the word "only". Volunteer Marek 21:10, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Revert this. Version by Paul (when the population of the Soviet Union suffered from the great famine caused by the consequences of Soviet agrarian reforms and food requisitions, which were exacerbated by poor weather conditions) tells that collectivization=agrarian reforms. This is not so. Soviet collectivization was a political repression campaign. It also tells that famine was cause by "food requisitions". That's correct, but not only by food requisitions. People died because they were prevented to move by military detachments. All of that was correctly summarized as "man-made famine" in previous version. Biophys (talk) 21:04, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

This is also a very good point. Or points. Volunteer Marek 21:10, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

The point is not good: many sources discuss mass killings during, e.g., Chinese "agrarian reforms". That agrarian reforms may lead to outburst of violence is a well known fact, and many serious scholars use exactly this language. In addition, the words "agrarian reform" are linked to the "collectivization" article, so the criticism is totally artificial.

Re military detachments, my version contains more details than the previous one, so to criticise it for providing not all details is simply not honest.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

I pay attention to such details because this is standard Soviet propaganda version, something that I was taught at school, back in the USSR. They claimed that Soviet collectivization was simply an agrarian reform. Well, even pro-Russian historian Figes was using a different, also Soviet neologism for this: "Veliki perelom" (Great Break (USSR)). Biophys (talk) 21:40, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you to everyone for your input. I'm a little busy, but I will try to resolve this (just the question of the possible revert of PS's last 3 additions) today. I do want to take a look at past discussions, and see if, in fact, the prior wording had a clear consensus. I will add one note about what I won't do. One editor above directly, and others indirectly, asked me to consider the quality of the arguments, citing WP:VOTE. Actually, that is precisely what I am not allowed to do. As soon as I start deciding which edit is actually more "correct", I immediately become an editor' rather than an admin, and thus can no longer reasonably edit through the protection (or even take future actions like removing the protection). I can consider how well the arguments match policy (as an analogy, if one person were making an argument entirely based on blogs and other SPS, I would discount such an argument), but I can't consider which summary is a more accurate analysis of the available sources. All I want to look for is whether or not the current version is a significant departure from the pre-edit war consensus, and, actually, whether or not the pre-edit war version really had consensus. While I can look by hand through past discussions and the archive, if anyone wants to point me to a specific section or archived section where consensus on one wording or the other was achieved, that would help me. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:38, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, and just to clarify, I know that some editors have already pointed to specific discussions already, I'm just checking if there are any more. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:39, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

See here, for example. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 00:56, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

The most important thing is that the article is fully protected. Regardless of its current state that prevents further damage. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 23:51, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

After review...

I've read through the discussions on this page, along with several in the archives. I've looked at not only the very most recent set of diffs, but also scattered parts of the history going back over 6 months. Most importantly, I re-read the policy on full protection. I want to quote the part on content disputes here (I imagine many of you know it, but I just want to be very clear about why I made the decision I did):

When protecting a page because of a content dispute, administrators normally protect the current version, except where the current version contains content that clearly violates content policies, such as vandalism, copyright violations, or defamation of living persons. Since protecting the most current version sometimes rewards edit warring by establishing a contentious revision, administrators may also revert to an old version of the page predating the edit war if such a clear point exists. Pages that are protected because of content disputes should not be edited except to make changes which are uncontroversial or for which there is clear consensus (see above).

So, I have only 2 choices: either keep the current version, or, to avoid "rewarding" edit warring, revert to the pre-dispute version. As near as I can tell, that would be the version from September 17, just before Voyevoda made the first attempt to contextualize Holodomor as a part of the Soviet/Great/USSR famine. Simply reverting the last 3 edits is not an acceptable practice per the protection policy. Looking back at the history of the article, it appears to me that the changes being suggested are for the most part actually new changes. Not new in that they haven't been suggested before, but new in the sense that they are not part of the stable version of the article that has existed for a while (well...semi-stable). It appears that the pre-September 19 version of the lead (at least, the parts that are currently in question) has a fairly strong claim as the previous "consensus" version of the article. As some have noted, consensus can change, and WP:BRD is an acceptable way to measure whether or not such a change has occurred (and, of course, to drive the change through discussion). That being said, the burden falls on those who want to change/show there is a change in consensus, and, if they can't, they should not be edit warring while trying to get that changed consensus. As such, what "should have" happened once the bold changes to the lead were made (removing "man-made", adding the wider Soviet famine, and whether or not the "relief" parameter of the infobox should be filled in) and then reverted, is that those seeking to change the article should have come to the talk page and discussed the changes (which was done at least in part above), but not attempted to re-insert the changes until such time as they had proved that they had a new consensus. At some point at least 3-4 days ago, it should have become abundantly clear that there was continued resistance to changes, and that discussion needed to occur rather than a great big insane multi-pronged edit war. I am not willing to reward the edit warring behavior of a minority (and there is no question that the new version is a minority version, given the !votes above) by keeping this article at the current version through the duration of what I expect could be quite a long protection while you work this mess out. As such, I am reverting to the version prior to the start of the edit war, which, of course, is just as much the WP:WRONGVERSION as the current one.

Please note that this is in no way an endorsement of the actual contents of the September 17 version. I haven't read any of the sources. I have only read the article enough to make accurate comparisons between different versions. I read the arguments above for or against the current version, but only analyzed them enough to determine if there were clear policy violations in either the current or old version. It may well be that the version as of the moment of protection is the "better" version. But I can't figure that out as an uninvolved admin, and, to be honest, wouldn't want to even if it were an option.

Finally, it does seem extraordinarily clear to me that you all are not going to solve this here, on this talk page, alone. You're going to need to start an RfC, take the issue to the dispute resolution noticeboard, or even start mediation if you think it's a serious enough problem. Qwyrxian (talk) 12:31, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Time to move further

Below is a last version of the first para:

"The Holodomor (Ukrainian: Голодомор, 'Морити голодом', literal translation Killing by hunger) is the name for a famine that took place on the territory of the Ukrainian SSR in 1932 and 1933, when the population of the Soviet Union suffered from the great famine caused by the consequences of Soviet agrarian reforms and food requisitions, which were exacerbated by poor weather conditions.^[1] During the famine, which is also known as the "terror-famine in Ukraine" and "famine-genocide in Ukraine",^[2]^[3]^[4] millions died of starvation in a peacetime catastrophe unprecedented in the history of Ukraine.^[5]"

Since I never pretended it to be a final version (nothing is final in WP), I expected it to be modified further. I did not participate in this edit war extensively, and it was not my fault that the article has been locked in this state. Let's start from the first sentence. Detailed description of the causes of the famine make it obvious that human factor was decisive, I believe "man-made" is redundant. "Man-made" is too wide (starting from famine as a result of drought caused by deforestation and ending with Irish potato famine), and it is better to explain concrete causes (especially taking into account that they are being extensively discussed in the article). However, I see another problem with this sentence. That Holodomor was a part of the Soviet famine is obvious, however, in addition to that, it was an epicenter of the Soviet famine. My verion does not make it clear. How do you propose to reflect this fact? I suggest to polish the first sentence, and then to discuss other aspects.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:31, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Some suggest that the effect of the famine in Kazakhstan might have been even worse if measured to the population size. As for the Ukrainian famine, it is for sure the most publicized part of the Soviet famine. GreyHood ^Talk 21:41, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Kazakhstan is definitely a separate story: it caused purely by totally stupid collectivisation policy.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:09, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, the situation in different regions was different, but there were common causes and traits and common timeframe, and they are dealt together under the Soviet famine of 1932-1933 concept. GreyHood ^Talk 22:15, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

I also want to emphasize that that Holodomor was a part of the Soviet famine is obvious and 100% sure needs to be mentioned in the lead, if only it is not a POV-pushing essay but a truly encyclopedic article, which means ontologically good-ordered information providing links to the hyperonym or holonym. Arguments given here regarding a "separate phenomenon" might give an impression of some support from sources focusing on Ukrainian famine (a support in approach, but not of the fact), but the sources on the Soviet famine in general do not to deal it as a separate thing and the total figures of the general famine are counted with the lesser famine as a part. GreyHood ^Talk 22:11, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Given majority of sources emphasize the man made nature of holodomor it has to be mentioned in the lede. In the section above I have asked for sources which state it is not man made, if none are provided then we use what majority of sources use, which is man made. The Last Angry Man (talk) 21:45, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Once again, nobody argue with the existance of the man-madeness aspect. The problem is that the term is ambiguous and needs clarification, which is given later in the lead and in the article, and that starting with the statement that it was "famine hunger" and continuing with the sentence "Scholars disagree on the relative importance of natural factors and bad economic policies as causes of the famine" is far from being logical and good style. GreyHood ^Talk 22:11, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

(re to Paul, edit conflict)

No, this is no good.

Here are the problems, and for now, I'm just going to focus on the first sentence:

when the population of the Soviet Union - ? Why is that in there? As the sources discuss the Holodomor was directed primarily at the Ukrainians. This appears to be an attempt to dilute that fact in a broader "Soviet sea".

suffered from the great famine - Again, Holodomor is distinct from the Soviet famine and the definition of the subject of the article should reflect that. The great famine can be mentioned later in the lede.

Comment - both of these above appear to be an attempt to, once again, rewrite the article to be about the Soviet famine of 1932-1933 (which has its own article) rather than what it's actually suppose to be about. That's why there are these numerous objections to this kind of wording.

caused by the consequences of Soviet agrarian reforms and food requisitions, which were exacerbated by poor weather conditions - just say it was "man-made" because that's what the sources say (including and up to the very specific usage of the term "man-made"). Second I very much agree with Biophys above that collectivization, particularly Soviet collectivization /= agrarian reforms. At best "Soviet collectivization" is an element of the set "agrarian reforms" though honestly, whether policies such as these can even be called "reforms" is open to question. It's as if someone said that "the disenfranchisement of African-Americans in the early 20th century American South occurred as a consequence of a reform of Jim Crow laws" - at best that will get you a confused "huh?". Third, as pointed out above it wasn't just food requisitions but also restrictions on mobility and also political terror. Fourth, as also already pointed out above, "poor weather conditions" had barely anything to do with the Holodomor, and only a little bit more to do with the Soviet famine that also happened. This one is a mix of trying to downplay the "man-made" aspect and at the same time, again, trying to write about the Soviet famine rather than the subject of this article. Volunteer Marek 21:49, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Marek, a part can have traits distinctive from the whole, but nevertheless it continues to be a part. Any event in encyclopedia is supposed to have the parameters "when" and "where", and to be linked to the larger event it was a part of if there was such one. GreyHood ^Talk 22:32, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, yes, I fully understand this. But let me emphasize again, that the objection is NOT to mentioning the Soviet famine. It is to the inclusion of the Soviet famine in the definition of this phenomenon. The source(s) I quoted above very explicitly state that it is "necessary" to treat it separately. So we should follow the sources. All of this doesn't mean that we can't mention the Soviet famine somewhere else in the lede. Volunteer Marek 22:35, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Which sources? Author, title, page? Quotes?--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:39, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

As already given above: "The adoption of the term Holodomor seems therefore legitimate, as well as necessary (my emphasis, VM), to mark a distinction between the pan-Soviet phenomenon of 1931-1933 and the Ukrainian Famine after the summer of 1932". Volunteer Marek 04:56, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Would Werth's opinion be of help? (Igny (talk) 22:46, 29 September 2011 (UTC))

Which part specifically are you referring to? Volunteer Marek 04:56, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Where he discusses Graziosi's attempt to reconcile two schools of thought. (Igny (talk) 11:06, 30 September 2011 (UTC))

Re "As the sources discuss the Holodomor was directed primarily at the Ukrainians." If we remember that Holodomor is the name of the famine that affected Ukrainian population, it definitely affected primarily this population. However, I see no sign of consensus among scholars that "Holodomor was directed primarily at the Ukrainians" Holodomor was not the Holocaust, it was not a specially designed program directed at someone. You probably remember that yesterday you accused me in riding a genocide question? Do you understand now why?

Re "both of these above appear to be an attempt to, once again, rewrite the article to be about the Soviet famine of 1932-1933" Just to put it into a broader historical context. Approximately 2/3 of all deaths during the great famine were Holodomor victims. What is the need to negate the fact that other parts of the USSR were affected too?

Re "just say it was "man-made" because that's what the sources say" Different sources say different things, however, there is a consensus among the scholars (or almost consensus) that the causes of Holodomor were as described by me.

Re "Second I very much agree with Biophys above that collectivization, particularly Soviet collectivization /= agrarian reforms." Of course, that was primarily the agrarian reform, however, if you want a direct link to collectivization, I see no serious problem with that, although the article becomes less readable.

Re ""poor weather conditions" had barely anything to do with the Holodomor, and only a little bit more to do with the Soviet famine that also happened." Firstly, I still don't understand why do you speak about "Soviet famine" and "Holodomor" as two separate things despite numerous evidences of the opposite. Do you question the Wheatcroft's book? In addition, poor weather condition are listed by Wheatcroft, who is a top expert in grain statistics, among the reasons. You should have to have a very serious ground to reject his opinion.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:09, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Sigh. Ok.

However, I see no sign of consensus among scholars that "Holodomor was directed primarily at the Ukrainians" Holodomor was not the Holocaust, it was not a specially designed program directed at someone." - but it was directed primarily at the Ukrainians and in fact sources are very specific about it. Graziosi above. And that source is representative of scholarly consensus. Now of course the Holodomor was not the Holocaust - you're trying to set up an unfair comparison here. For one thing, the Holodomor did not have a racial/ethnic cause (only an "effect"). I'm sure that, unlike Hitler and Jews, Stalin had nothing particularly fundamentally against the Ukrainians (I mean, maybe, but whatever such prejudices he might have harbored played very little role here) it's just that the Ukrainians as a group were giving him a lot of trouble. Still, even though it wasn't "ethnically motivated" it was very much "ethnically directed"
You probably remember that yesterday you accused me in riding a genocide question? Do you understand now why? - yeah, probably I do remember. And I can see why - your argument seems to be that because it wasn't a genocide by the strict definition of this term, we cannot say that it was "directed" at the Ukrainians. But that's nonsense. First, the source does say that it WAS a genocide by the looser definitions of the term. Second, even if it wasn't "genocide" it could still be "directed". In between laying out the premises and coming to the conclusion you're skipping some steps which appear to be your own original research. And, one more time, the sources are specific about it being "directed", "targeted" or something like that. Sources, sources, sources!
Different sources say different things, however, there is a consensus among the scholars (or almost consensus) that the causes of Holodomor were as described by me - no, most of them say it was "man-made". "As described by me (i.e. you)" is not necessarily in conflict with that (since it implies it). But I would rather go with what the sources say rather than what Paul Siebert describes.
Of course, that was primarily the agrarian reform, however, if you want a direct link to collectivization, I see no serious problem with that, although the article becomes less readable. - the obvious problem is that the term "agrarian reform" usually refers to something like redistribution of land, though it can be a little more complicated. In fact that's what the Wikipedia article Agrarian reform is about. Describing the seizure of land by the Soviet state and the policy of "work on collective farms or die" (I believe this was the explicit name of the policy) (and let's put aside the fact that even those who joined collective farms starved) as "agrarian reform" really borders on a bad joke. Putting in a direct, but unseen link to the more proper article doesn't solve the problem. Call things what they really are.
Firstly, I still don't understand why do you speak about "Soviet famine" and "Holodomor" as two separate things despite numerous evidences of the opposite. - because they were separate! as above sources indicate. "Separate" does not mean that they had nothing to do with each other, just that analytically in studying the subject and understanding it, it is useful... nay, in Graziosi's words necessary, to treat them separately. How many times does this have to be said?!?
In addition, poor weather condition are listed by Wheatcroft, who is a top expert in grain statistics, among the reasons. - I'm guessing this is like your insistence on putting the word "only" in your Socratic questions above. No one said "only" above and no one is saying here that weather had absolutely nothing to do with it. But sources do stress that weather was but a small factor and that - for the Holodomor, not the Soviet famine - purposeful policy instituted by people was the culprit behind the vast majority of deaths.

Think of it this way: Suppose my neighbor doesn't like me. And one hot and dry summer a pile of leaves in my backyard happens to catch on fire. The neighbor sees this, runs over into my backyard with several cans of gasoline and starts pouring it all over the place and so my whole house burns down. Yeah, I guess you could say that my house burned down because of "municipal reforms and provision of accelerant fuel, acerbated by a particularly hot and dry weather". And sensu stricto that'd be true enough. It would also be completely dishonest as to what really happened. Same thing here, which is why peoples is getting annoyed with this continued POV pushing, however "truly" or "logically", it is worded. Volunteer Marek 23:44, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Re in Graziosi's words necessary, to treat them separately.. You ignored my earlier question about this source. When Graziosi talks about treating Holodomor separately, does she refer to it as the Ukrainian national tragedy, or the actual famine in UkSSR? I don't have access to the actual source, so my question was just based on the Google snippet. It still deserves an answer. In other words, did she mean to treat the Holodomor separately as a national tragedy of Ukrainians? Or she meant the Holodomor was isolated enough to be a separate event? (Igny (talk) 00:04, 27 September 2011 (UTC))

I can email you the article if you want. I'm not sure if "Ukrainian national tragedy" is relevant here. The fact that the outcome of the Holodomor was different and that this was due to the "national question" (i.e. related to Ukrainians) is most certainly in the article. The phrase "Ukrainian national tragedy" doesn't appear in the article, I think (I'm using a different computer right now so don't have the pdf on it). I'm not clear as to what the exact distinction between your last two statements is ("Holodomor separately as a national tragedy of Ukrainians" vs. "Holodomor was isolated enough to be a separate event"). Volunteer Marek 01:23, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Nevermind, I did not realize the article was on JSTOR. I will read it. (Igny (talk) 03:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC))

I guess this debate is over now. (Igny (talk) 00:21, 28 September 2011 (UTC))

How so? Volunteer Marek 00:42, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

The article is now frozen in the POV-tagged state until some kind of consensus develops, and I am not going to hold my breath. (Igny (talk) 01:45, 28 September 2011 (UTC))

The whole point of full protection isn't to preserve the current version indefinitely, but to force people to discuss the issue on talk. Again, if you can't reach consensus among yourselves, use dispute resolution. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:15, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I can easily predict up to 80% of participants of prospective RfC, whose results (or the lack of results) are more or less predictable. I suggest to go to mediation (I support the idea of informal mediation for the beginning).--Paul Siebert (talk) 02:54, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

One thing I can say after my reading is that there is substantial evidence here that you all attempted to resolve the problems on your own and have not been able to achieve consensus, one of the key pre-requisites of mediation. Let me add a new subsection: Qwyrxian (talk) 03:18, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Mediation

Paul Siebert has recommend that users enter informal mediation (i.e., WP:MEDCAB) to discuss the issue of how the lead should be written. One of the conditions of mediation is that all major editors on the subject voluntarily agree to mediation. To see if this is a plausible step forward, could editors indicate their willingness or unwillingness to enter mediation? For anyone rejecting mediation, could you kindly explain what next step you would like to take instead? Qwyrxian (talk) 03:18, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Agreed.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:26, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm curious. Agree. Hopefully this process is not completely worthless like RfC. Let's give it a shot. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 05:01, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
Agreed. (Igny (talk) 11:05, 28 September 2011 (UTC))
Comment. This is ridiculous. Of course mediation will fail. Do not waste your time and go edit something else. But please do not follow each other in other articles, because this way we will have more and more articles that are permanently protected or under editing restrictions like Mass killings under Communist regimes. Biophys (talk) 13:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
Maybe. To some extent Biophys is right. Also I'm quite busy so if this is going to be some kind of useless time sink then "no". I could probably however participate in a limited capacity. It also depends on who else is in there. If the "people on the other side" are Paul, Igny and Greyhood then it might work. On the other hand there are a couple editors (not here presently) whose presence is pretty sure to throw a wrench into any mediation machine. Volunteer Marek 14:59, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
Agreed. Hope this leads to some progress. GreyHood ^Talk 15:45, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
Comment Let's see how some of the other disagreements and respective proposals go which Paul Siebert already has under way. Quite frankly, I don't have a tenth of the time Paul appears to have, so let's stick to one major conflict resolution at a time. Националист-патриот ►TALK 01:08, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, but I'm not involved in some of these other arguments that everyone else seems to be involved in and personally I don't feel like waiting on others here. Volunteer Marek 02:22, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Guys, can we summarise, please, who concretely agreed to participate in mediation? As far as I understand, only two editors who (conditionally) can be considered as belonging to the other side of opinion spectrum expressed the will to participate. If other users will refuse to do that, we cannot speak about any mediation...--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:12, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm more than willing to participate, and think it is very possible to find a consensus. We shouldn't hurry, we should take our time so editing wars can stop. I think some of my earlier posts here show I understand both sides quite well. The fact of the matter is that this event took place almost 100 years ago in an area with virtually no documentation. Unlike other events, it is possible and not forbidden by law to have different opinions on Holodomor. As such, a lot of the information on it really depends from what angle you look at it, and because of that, both views need to be included in the article. --Ljudyna —Preceding undated comment added 19:11, 1 October 2011 (UTC).

Then could you please just write Agreed and sign? That would facilitate the admin's live.--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:43, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. See above comment. It will work but only if there is a strong representation of both sides, as Hodja Nasreddin said. --Ljudyna

I have opened a new case with MedCab. The instructions say that it takes about 10 minutes for the page to be transcluded by bot; I bring over a link once I get it. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:05, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

The case is open at Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/02 October 2011/Holodomor. Mediator Steven Zhang has asked all users to agree to some ground rules, so please go there and sign in if you accept (also, if I have missed anything in my description, or misrepresented something, please let me know). Qwyrxian (talk) 09:16, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Image

File:Holodomor memorial in Luhansk.jpg

Monument to victims of Holodomor in Luhansk, Ukraine

Protected? Would you help me to upload this image --Qypchak (talk) 18:09, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

You can't do it since the article is protected... Macedonian (talk) 18:32, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

If you want, you can request an administrator to make the change for you using the steps at our edit requests page. Thanks — Mr. Stradivarius ^♫ 19:16, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Please fix a link

‹ The template below (Edit fully-protected) is being considered for merging. See templates for discussion to help reach a consensus. ›

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The link to the CBC under "External links" is wrong and leads to a useless page! Replace current link for "CBC program about the Great Hunger" with >> http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/episodes/2010/04/08/the-great-hunger-part-1-2/ << . --Skol fir (talk) 21:00, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Done — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 16:36, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

re: Genocide

Ran across this with regard to Nicolas Werth. As we know, he criticized Courtois' summary, but still 65-93 million, mainly he rather through Courtois was rounding up to the next big number... but a tale for a different article. In the Black Book, Werth does not think "genocide" regarding Holodomor, but things change. From Adam Jones, Genocide: A Comprehensive Introduction, 2nd edition:

In evaluating the Stalinist period, the application of a genocide framework to the Ukrainian famine (1931–32) remains a controversial subject of debate. But even some of those once skeptical of the label have shifted toward it. Nicholas Werth declined to render a verdict of genocide in his long chapter on Stalinist crimes for The Black Book of Communism in 1999. But by 2008, his position had shifted:

"A whole panoply of repressive measures was put in place, ranging from closure of shops to police questioning of any peasants trying to flee from their starving villages. Over and above this range of repressive measures, it is clear that Stalin, from the end of the summer of 1932, really had decided to worsen the famine that was beginning, to turn it into a weapon, to extend it deliberately…. Recent research has shown, without any doubt, that the Ukrainian case is quite specific, at least from the second half of 1932 onwards. On the basis of these new considerations, it seems to me legitimate to classify as genocide the totality of the actions taken by the Stalin regime to punish, by means of famine and terror, the Ukrainian peasantry."

Not looking to start a side conversation, just placing here for when we get to discussion of this aspect of the article. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 04:51, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Reflections in culture

It should have been a chapter about reflections on Holodomor in Culture, I mean literature, music, cinema, fine art. There are several outstanding Ukrainian novels concerning Holodomor as well as feature films and documentaries. Felixum8888 (talk) 04:39, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

If you have the information, you may compose such a section in your userspace and present it to an administrator so they may add it. Right now, the page is fully-protected, so you won't be able to add it at the moment. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk)

Please add link to the article

To the admins. Please add this link to the 1933 article by professor Markoff to the further reading or external links section. --DonaldDuck (talk) 10:33, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

File:Child affected by malnutrition.jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Child affected by malnutrition.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests January 2012

What should I do?

Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.

If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use)
If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used.

This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 13:04, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 16 January 2012

‹ The template below (Edit fully-protected) is being considered for merging. See templates for discussion to help reach a consensus. ›

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The first public monument to the Holodomor was erected and dedicated outside City Hall in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada in 1983 to mark the 50th anniversary of the famine-genocide.

Correction, the Holodomor Monument is located outside of the Alberta Provincial Legislative Building, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.68.132.79 (talk) 03:40, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

124.180.168.57 (talk) 07:22, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Not done: You haven't detailed what changes need to be made. Also please note that the dispute is currently under mediation, so controversial changes will need to be discussed. Cheers. Steven Zhang ^{Join the DR army!} 07:45, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

"the legal definition of genocide"

I suggest the wording "the legal definition of genocide" is changed to "the definition of genocide in the UN Genocide Convention". The UN is an organisation founded by a minority of the world's countries and does not have a monopoly on defining genocide, and its convention is only ratified by 140 states, i.e. by no means all countries in the world (not even all of their own members). Such as a thing as "the legal definition of genocide" does not exist; multiple legal definitions of genocide exist. In a number of countries, Soviet crimes not covered by that 1940s convention are by law determined to be genocide. It should be noted that the Soviet Union, i.e. a politically extreme totalitarian regime responsible for genocide, had a role in formulating this document from the 1940s (Stalin era), itself a fact that discredits the convention, as it was obviously tailored to exclude Soviet genocides. The 1940s definition is contradicted by definitions of genocide used by modern democratic governments (especially in countries where Soviet genocides took place) and by modern scholars, and not considered authoritative today. Tataral (talk) 19:41, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 24 January 2012 Image:HolodomorEdmonton.jpg

‹ The template below (Edit fully-protected) is being considered for merging. See templates for discussion to help reach a consensus. ›

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

please remove the redlinked Image:HolodomorEdmonton.jpg from this article since the image has been deleted for an incorrect licence. Meters (talk) 20:32, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Done--Jac16888 ^Talk 20:36, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Discussion on WP:MCQ has concluded image licence is OK. File has been restored. Please undo the edit on holodomor. Meters (talk) 17:23, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Done again. (ps, if you put a : in front of the file/image part in the link, like so [[:Image:HolodomorEdmonton.jpg]], it just links to it rather than posting the image) --Jac16888 ^Talk 17:27, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Famine and Politics

General : Isn't it a little odd that when ever a famine or similar natural disaster has taken place in a socialist country the leadership and political system is automatically blamed? Countless other catastrophes have befallen countries that are allied with capitalist and imperialist powers, and in these cases it's simply a random tragedy, never to do with politics. Looks like the cold War is still being fought, doesn't it? See "Famine, Fraud and Fascism", by D. Tottle for a refutation of this Holomodor lie.

Specific: It should also be pointed out that chief proponents of the "Holomodor" thesis include ultra-right Ukrainian nationalists, many of whom collaborated with the Nazi invasion of the USSR during the Second world War; and most notably of all, Joseph Goebbels, the propagandist of the Third Reich, who saw a great opportunity in the events in the Ukraine in the early 1930s. Ably assisted by the Hearst press, which dutifully spread Goebbels' propaganda for him in the West, the Nazis succeeded in distorting, exaggerating and simply inventing the myth that has now become known as the "Holomodor" in order to justify their long-held ambition to expand eastward and attack the Soviet Union. The "Holomodor" myth is something which continues today to be a weapon in the armory of fascists, neo-Nazis and anti-communists of all types in the fight against progressive politics and socialism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.171.37.99 (talk) 12:38, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

1. Wikipedia has a nasty policy which says we use what is written in reliable sources. In the case of Holodomor, the sources pretty uniformly show government actions as being directly involved in the euphemistic "excess deaths." Some of the sources even say that removing fdood from people may cause death. 2. The Godwin Rule deals with your attempt to make those sources into Goebbbels. 3. The book you cite was not reviewed in mainstream press - it is not found in any NYT cite for example. 4. [7] the book appears to have been published by the Communist Party of Canada. ("Progress Publishers" was specifically owned and operated by that party) It does not pass WP:RS. By a thousand km. Collect (talk) 12:52, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Collect is correct. To emphasise: Tottle's work was not positively reviewed in the relevant academic journals, he's neither a historian, nor esteemed as a historian by the discipline. Progress Publishers may be a useful press when it comes to "what was a Canadian communist analysis," or "reprints of Bolshevik and occasionally Marxist literature," but this is a work purporting to be a historical work. And it was withdrawn from publication soon after issue as its research was found to be grossly and systematically out of date. There are other, superior, scholarly analyses of the social contestation of memory and the political construction of national and political historical narratives around these mass deaths by famine. We must use those instead of discredited histories by trade unionists that didn't receive review in appropriate journals. Fifelfoo (talk) 21:38, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Looks like Collect and Fifelfoo use the same brain. As to the D. Tottle's book, using just the most primitive Google book search [8] an interested reader can find many opinions supporting or denying D. Tottle. A lot of phrases saying nothing, calling upon Wikipeda's policy (especially when it is knownt that Wikipedia is disqualified as credible source by all American and European universities and other academic institutions), then mentioning NYT ad mainstream press, etc, etc, etc. Now a 'nugget': "And it was withdrawn from publication soon after issue as its research was found to be grossly and systematically out of date." - says who?--71.178.106.120 (talk) 01:08, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Scholarship of Ludo Martens

Author Ludo Martens writes in his book ANOTHER LOOK AT STALIN that the Ukrainian genocide as a news story began in the Nazi presses in Germany before Hearst picked it up in the US press. Martens argues a combination of re-drawn national boundaries of the newly-formed Ukrainian SSR, legalized abortion, and lower birth rates in general resulted in the gaps of population over the period. Furthermore, Martens citations and footnotes tracing the route of the Ukrainian famine story back to false rumors, word-of-mouth, and an anti-Communist Fascist Ukrainian movement that would eventually collaborate with the Third Reich. I am not making this argument, I am just curious about whether some would be interested in seeing it presented to resolve the disputed validity? Martens was not a kook, he was anti-racist and argued these figures in the Ukrainian Nationalist movement were anti-Semites. The issues of anti-Semitism and it's link to anti-Bolshevism as a modern variation of older norms of hate are part of this discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stew312856 (talk • contribs) 03:45, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

There is another book: Stalin: A New History by James R. Harris; Cambridge University Press, Sep 8, 2005 which gives a factual insight into the famine that hit USSR that time.This article is burdened by biased writings of all thise who are dividing this world into us and them, free and oppressed, civilised and villains, etc.--71.178.106.120 (talk) 01:25, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Legal recognition

Statements like

The joint statement at the United Nations in 2003 has defined the famine as the result of actions and policies of the totalitarian regime that caused the deaths of millions of Ukrainians, Russians, Kazakhs and other nationalities in the USSR.[25]

have nothing with legality, even if heard in the OUN. That "joint statement" is just 24 governmets supported declaration, where Russia is not the one, even listed there.--71.178.106.120 (talk) 01:38, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

File:Child affected by malnutrition.jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Child affected by malnutrition.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests January 2012

What should I do?

Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.

If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use)
If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used.

To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Child affected by malnutrition.jpg)

This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 10:47, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

File:Holodomor World recognition.png Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Holodomor World recognition.png, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests March 2012

What should I do?

Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.

If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use)
If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used.

To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Holodomor World recognition.png)

This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 19:04, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Main image deleted, time to replace

Since the main image for the Holodomor article was deleted on Commons yesterday, we need to decide on a replacement one. There are a number of images that could potentially be used at Commons:Category:Holodomor. User:Alex Bakharev had suggested Commons:File:Людина, що біжить. Казимир Малевич.jpg as an alternative image during the 2010 full-protect session, but I figured that the floor should be opened for discussion first on this one. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 16:46, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Why was it deleted?? And how about this [9] --Львівське (говорити) 05:58, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

How about a collage?(Львівське (говорити) 06:00, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Unclear permission and whatnot. They did preserve the talkpage for the image, though.

A collage might be a good idea, though there aren't many verified images of the famine. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 16:12, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Your choice for the image seems fine to me, though I did chuckle when I saw it, given the uploader.... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 16:17, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

I figured it'd suffice until we decided on something better. (covered the same ground as the last one). I don't like the green abstract running man though, I have no idea what it represents.--Львівське (говорити) 16:20, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

I prefer Lvivske's suggestion of a photograph (until a better permanent replacement is found). I see no good reason for artistic milquetoasting. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 18:13, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

I would prefer a photograph as well; AB's suggestion was brought up as just that—a suggestion. The thing with photos, though, is that we have to be wary of hoax ones. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:25, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

If this one is Jo0doe approved then I think we're safe. He goes heavy on the conspiracy.--Львівське (говорити) 05:55, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Deleted again. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 00:42, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

How about this or this or this or this? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 00:45, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm good with File:GolodomorKharkiv.jpg. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 02:12, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

We sure this is conspiracy-free? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 03:00, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Are there any problems with or objections to File:GolodomorKharkiv.jpg being used in the infobox? If none are presented within the next few days, I will add the image to the article. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:03, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Designation as Man-Made, neutrality

Hello, while I am sure we all have our own opinions on what did and didn't happen during Holodomor, it is not right to designate it as man-made, when that status is disputed to this very day. In the article it is very clearly stated that several countries have recodnized it as an act of genocide, as well as listed the genocidal theories of several scholars, however, that does not mean that they are indeed confirmed, as there is an equal number of scholars and countries that don't recodnize it as an act of genocide, but rather as a consequence of rapid collectivisation and industrialisation and/or poor crop conditions.

It is unanimously agreed that there was a horrible famine, but please do not obvertly add unconfirmed material, because this is highly disputed. I have removed "man-made" from the description, as that was violating the neutral point of view, which is disputed and also marked it in need of a POV check to eliminate any further such occurences.

Please note that relaxed definition or not, the causes of the famine are very disputed, as are the topics of wether or not it was intentional, collateral or random. When adding scholar's theories, please add which scholar stated said theory and clearly mark it so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rimlanin (talk • contribs) 19:31, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

"Man-made" covers both genocide and consequences of collectivization. The distinction is between man-made and natural (ie. a drought). To remove the unanimous, absolute distinction that this was man-made is a frige POV push as far as I'm concerned. --Львівське (говорити) 22:48, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

For goodness sakes. The lede is the least important part of the article. If we must have a discussion over this, then let us discuss improving the discussion in the body of the article regarding scholarly positions on the factors causing (or failing to alleviate) the famine. Fifelfoo (talk) 02:18, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

"Man-made" makes no judgement regarding intent and is completely appropriate. Time to move on. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 03:13, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

First sorry for my poor English. I am French and I don't intend to be involved in this debate for a long time. The majority of famines in human history are "man made". Ie. they involded political and economic aspects. See Amartya Sen, Poverty and Famines : An Essay on Entitlements and Deprivation. No one historian denies the importance of Soviet policies in the 1932-1933 famine, but many argue that the famine was caused by the interaction of natural, political and economic factors. As result, some of these historians reject the term "man-made" as political and non-scientific. On this point see the debate between Mark Tauger and Stephen Wheatcroft :

Tauger, Natural Disaster and Human Actions in the Soviet Famine of 1931-1933, 2001 1
Wheatcroft, Davies, "Towards explaining soviet famine of 1931-1933 political and natural factors in perspective", Food and Foodways, 12: 2, 107—136, 2004
Tauger,"Arguing from Errors: On Certain Issues in Robert Davies’ and Stephen Wheatcroft’s Analysis of the 1932 Soviet Grain Harvest and the Great Soviet Famine of 1931 – 1933", EUROPE-ASIA STUDIES, Vol. 58, No. 6, September 2006, 973 – 984
Wheatcroft, "On Continuing to Misunderstand Arguments Response to Mark Tauger", EUROPE-ASIA STUDIES, Vol. 59, No. 5, July 2007.
Tauger, "Arguing from More Errors: Reply to Stephen Wheatcroft (with a postscript at the end)", 2

Notice that the totality or quasi totality of authors who use the term of "man-made" defend in fact the theory of genocide. Conversely I never read the term in articles or books rejecting the theory (Tauger, Wheatcroft & Davies, Kondrashin, Terry Martin, Hiroaki Kuromiya, O'Grada, Dan Penner etc.). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.218.81.220 (talk) 14:39, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Tauger...oh lord...--Львівське (говорити) 14:42, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

The designation as man-made, while it does, in some ways, hold true, it is used in a fashion that hints twoard the theory that the famine was in fact, intentionally made, for one ulterior reason or another. However, for now, I do think that we can reach a middle ground on this, while still continuing the debate. PS. Returning the NPOV tag, as there is still a debate, don't know why it was removed. Rimlanin (talk) 20:53, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Some quotations :

"Until recently both scholarly and popular discussions of the catastrophic famine in the Soviet Union in 1932-1933 invariably have described it as an artificial or "man made" famine [...]. While the intentionalist interpretations of the famine remain widely held, recent research has cast substantial doubt on them", Mark Tauger, "Natural Disaster and Human Actions in the Soviet Famine of 1931-1933", 2001 1, p. 1 and further in the introduction "I conclude that it is thus innacurate to describe the Soviet famine of 1932-1933 as artificial or man-made famine, or otherwise to reduce it to a single cause. Overall, the low harvest, and hence the famine, resulted from a complex of human and environnmental factors, an interaction of man and nature, much as most previous famine in history" (p. 6)
Wheatcroft, Davies, "Towards explaining soviet famine of 1931-1933 political and natural factors in perspective", Food and Foodways, 12: 2, 107—136, 2004 :

- "The famine of 1931–3 was one of a number of recent major Russian and Soviet famines. Although each famine had its own specific causes, I argue that there were nevertheless some common features between these earlier famines. I claim that the famine of 1931–3 cannot be appropriately understood in isolation of these earlier events. But some historians deny that an understanding of these other famines is of any relevance to what they describe as the “artificial,” “man-made” famine of 1931–3. They claim that the 1931–3 famine was a political famine of a totally different kind to the earlier famines.", p.108 ;

- "On the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the 1931–33 famine, the Ukrainian community in the USA lobbied the U.S. Congress to establish a Congressional Inquiry into “the Man-made famine in the Ukraine.” The work of this commission under James Mace at the Harvard University Ukrainian Research Institute and especially the publication of Robert Conquest’s book The Harvest of Sorrow made it clear that by “man-made” they meant that the famine was artificial and had been produced on purpose.", p.117 ;

- "Mark Tauger began his essay on Natural Disasters and Human Actions in the Soviet Famine of 1931–1933 with the statement “Until recently both scholarly and popular discussions of the catastrophic famine in the Soviet Union in 1931–1933 invariably have described it as an artificial or “man-made” famine.” (Mark Tauger, Natural Disasters and Human Actions in the Soviet Famine of 1931–1933, The Carl Beck Papers, University of Pittsburgh, No. 1506, June 2001.) This is incorrect and Tauger does the profession a great disservice by claiming that Conquest’s views were invariably held by all, including specialists in the area.", p.133. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.3.21.6 (talk) 00:27, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Mortality estimates

I've been going through the article making cites sexy, but then I noticed the numbers cited, specifically the upper estimates (from the article):

Early estimates of the death toll by scholars and government officials varied greatly; anywhere from 1.8 to 12 million ethnic Ukrainians were said to have been killed as a result of the famine. Recent research has since narrowed the estimates to between 2.4 and 7.5 million.

The upper bounds used are rather high, having seemingly been pulled from total deaths in the Soviet Union as a whole over a more extended period, rather than deaths that occurred only in Soviet Ukraine during the famine of the early 1930s. Do others agree? If so, may I snip out these mistakes? Skirtsy ^{My talkEdits} 21:13, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Verifiable?

Anatoliy Vlasyuk, Nationalism and Holodomor, p.53 (he states that this the absolute minimum killed, by looking at the population loss would be around 4.5 million, with 7.5 million being more likely, and 10 million also being possible.

Does this honestly count as verifiable? The only place this book appears is on Wikipedia (and sites that quote it); there's no link to where even the original book might be found (not even a year of publication); and putting the Ukrainian for the title into Google with quotes ("Голодомор і націоналізм") gives no results. Am I being unfair? Skirtsy ^{My talkEdits} 21:28, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Demographic research conducted after the opening of soviet archives give estimations between 2.6 millions (Adamets, Mesle, Vallin), 3-3.5 millions (Kulchitski)and 2.8-3.8 millions (Wheatcroft) deaths due to the 1932-1933 famine in soviet Ukraine. Some authors add the ~500.000 deaths of North Caucasus where a (short) majority of the population was Ukrainian. Yet, estimations higher than 4.5 millions deaths from Holodomor :

a) have been made before the opening of archives, on the basis of poor material or irealistic demographic hypothesis (Ie. Conquest, Mace).

b) or are claims from non-specialists.

Especially, estimations of 7.5 millions deaths or even higher figures are totally incredible. Even for the whole Soviet Union, the figure of 7.5 millions is in the upper range of estimations. For instance Wheatcroft estimates the level of excess mortality in SU in 1930-1933 to 5.8 millions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.249.219.12 (talk) 15:39, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I cannot find it either. It was added by a editor who is now inactive.[10] Suggest we remove it. TFD (talk) 16:28, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I have done so. Skirtsy ^{My talkEdits} 19:02, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Kyiv rather than Kiev

In English, it is transliterated as Kyiv. See Timothy Snyder here. I see no reason to use the transliteration of the Russian name for the city. Skirtsy ^{My talkEdits} 22:05, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

It is normally called "Kiev". You need a better source to change it. Note that even your source calls it "Kiev" elsewhere in the text. TFD (talk) 04:30, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

"[Y]our source calls it 'Kiev' elsewhere in the text." Yes, though I call your attention to the contexts in which Kiev is used over Kyiv. It seems I will have to bow anyway, since the policy is currently Kiev. I'll revert myself if someone's not already done so. Skirtsy ^{My talkEdits} 10:37, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

This has been a major problem over the past few years. We are mostly aware of an impending change-over to Kyiv which will probably come sometime in the next ten years in Britain and perhaps others, the difficulty will be deciding when common usage has changed.

Until now, most of our text uses Kiev, though at the start of the Kiev article it gives "Kiev or Kyiv ..." - perhaps it is time to start using that as the basis for mentions, though this would only be in the first usage? (similar to how abbreviations are used)

Ukrainian sources which are translated into English often use the American spelling. I have been in contact with the UN, US state department and British Foreign office to find their policy, I cannot report here as it would be hearsay - no, not heresy :¬) Unfortunately many adopted the Russified transliteration and are reluctant to change. Once we get "Chicken Kyiv" in our freezers, we will know for sure that the change has happened Chaosdruid (talk) 17:42, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

(Also copied to the Kiev/Kyiv naming page)

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Holodomor translation

I say 'holodomor' translates as "starve someone to death" but these people keep undoing me and replacing it by "killing someone by hunger"... which to me sounds awkward. Please choose which you like better - "starve someone to death" or "kill by hunger" --Diefromevileye (talk) 01:35, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Well it does not mean starving people to death, it means killing by hunger. TFD (talk) 03:03, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Nope. "Killing by hunger" is not good English, while "starve someone to death" is PERFECT translation for морити --Diefromevileye (talk) 03:17, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

It does not matter if it is good English - it is not good Ukrainian to begin with. The concept tries to combine the idea of the famine, which is what it is normally called in English, with the concept of its being inflicted, which is more emphatic than starving someone to death. If the coiners of the term had intended it to be translated that way, then they would have phrased it differently. Your real issue is with the original term. TFD (talk) 03:51, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

The Holodomor (Ukrainian: Голодомор, 'Морити голодом', literal translation starving someone to death)

My reversion of the above was on the basis of "starving someone to death" not being a literal translation of Морити голодом. I don't speak Ukrainian, but my Polish is OK, and I've seen enough extraordinary similarities (not surprising, both Slavic languages) between Polish and Russian to be sure that Морити голодом does literally mean killing by hunger. The first word, Морити, will mean killing or something similar (Google Translate gives me exterminate), and I'll bet my house that the second word, голодом, will be the instrumental case (often translated as by—in Polish, for example, płacić gotówką means to pay by cash, where płacić is the verb to pay and the word gotówką is the instrumental case of gotówka or cash) of the word hunger (or whatever the equivalent case is in Ukrainian). In fact, looking at this I'll guess further: I bet that голодом is the instrumental case of the word hunger, and that the word hunger in Ukrainian is either a masculine or a neuter noun. Why? Look at the ending of голодом, which I reckon is -ом. In Polish, singular masculine and neuter nouns in the instrumental case take ending -em—for me, the similarity is too remarkable to not have something to it. It could be added that the word someone doesn't even feature in Морити голодом, nor does the verb to starve. In short, changing the text to "starving someone to death" is not merited, hence the repeated reversions by me and others. Skirtsy ^{My talkEdits} 13:36, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Since Diefromevileye, the only editor who has argued for the change, has been indefinitely blocked for disruption, I will close this discussion thread. TFD (talk) 17:27, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

One more time on "man made"

Please I have recently provided 1 quotations from historians who criticize the characterization of the famine as "man made". If the term is used in the article, it must be characterized as a particular POV to respect the neutrality of Wp. Sorry for the possible grammatical errors, my english is not perfect. But please consider my arguments. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.141.25.6 (talk) 15:04, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Is there any numbers on how many christians died in holodomor?

is there any source that says how many christians died in holodomor? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bearaaw (talk • contribs) 07:04, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Presumably the vast majority of the Ukrainian peasantry was Orthodox Christian, so I'd say that the vast majority of the victims were as well. I am unaware of any serious source addressing this specifically, as it is of marginal if not fringe importance to the nature of the event. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 07:16, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

I am unaware of any source on the christian % aswell. I was just wondering since I saw other ethnic groups but no christians and I heard alot of christians died in this event.

Thanks for the response Bearaaw (talk) 17:08, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

POV

"During the famine, which is also known as the "terror-famine in Ukraine" and "famine-genocide in Ukraine""

This is POV, since there are no documents which confirm that Stalin or the Soviet leadership ordered the genocide of the Ukranian nation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.254.231.154 (talk) 15:41, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Appears to be reliably sourced and presented properly in quotation marks. Collect (talk) 15:51, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Not relevant- I am sure I can find sources denying the Holocaust. That doesn't mean the Holocaust didn't happen. "Man-made" and "genocide" should be removed from the intro, as these are in scholarly dispute. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.254.231.154 (talk) 16:34, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

For the last time: Removed major POV in introduction.

The introduction, before I edited it, refers to the famine as "also being known" as a "terror-famine" and "the Ukranian genocide", as well as being "man-made". This is blatant POV, as the extent the Soviet government played in the famine is the subject of massive academic dispute. I have removed the "man-made" label as well- the word "famine" means a major crop loss. Unless sources can be provided that the Soviet government purposefully poisoned Ukranian collective farms or otherwise hindered the harvest, to say it is "man made" is nonsensical. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.79.29.99 (talk) 08:25, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

"The chain of events leading to the famine is well documented, and there is considerable agreement among historians of the subject (Conquest, 1986; Graziosi, 1991; Lewin, 1968, 1985; Nove, 1980, 1989). The crisis had its origin in the end of the New Economic Policy (NEP), and in the "great turn" in 1929 to undertake an ambitious plan of rapid industrialization, which then greatly accelerated the process of urbanization. During the first five-year plan national income, industrial production, and investment were supposed to multiply by a factor of two or three, while consumption was also supposed to increase (Nove, 1989: 145). Industrial workers and urban dwellers, the protagonists of this incredible effort, had to be fed; hence a new system of grain procurement was enacted (in practice, forcible extraction of grain from the peasants with negligible or no compensation [emphases mine]." (On the Human Costs of Collectivization in the Soviet Union. Author(s): Massimo Livi-Bacci Population and Development Review, Vol. 19, No. 4 (Dec., 1993), pp. 743-766)

"Man-made" is not a statement of intent, it is a necessary disambiguation from famine caused by natural causes as bad harvests/crop failure. No serious historian contends that this was anything other than artificial and the result of purely human factors; the debate is whether or not it was a deliberate act of democide/genocide. The alternate names are found in the literature and are presented as such. If others really want, they could be moved to the Etymology section, but they should not be removed outright. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 18:18, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

I have to agree with that. "Man-made" means that famine was a result of human activity, not of some natural disaster.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:25, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Some historians, mainly Davies and Wheatcroft in their book "Years of Hunger" dispute the characterization of the famine as man-made. But anyway, surely "genocide" should be removed from the first sentence of the article, considering that that still remains the subject of academic debate, with the majority of legitimate scholars saying it was not genocide, as there does not exist a single document supporting this assertion, either directly or indirectly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.215.36.175 (talk) 07:36, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

"the majority of legitimate scholars saying it was not genocide, as there does not exist a single document supporting this assertion, either directly or indirectly." < This simply isn't true. It appears you have an agenda to push here. Also, note that the word genocide does not appear in the first sentence anyway. If your goal here is to omit it outright from the entire introduction, you're in for a difficult case because the event is primarily known for its distinction as genocide, and its international recognition as such (or not). Genocide, as a topic, cannot be omitted from either perspective.--Львівське (говорити) 07:59, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Please provide a document in which the Soviet government or Stalin orders the intentional starvation of Ukraine. Such a document does not exist, and even Robert Conquest himself has renounced the genocide-famine myth: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/20451229?uid=3738224&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21101291115483

According to "Years of Hunger" by Davies and Wheatcroft, by far the best book on the subject, in February 1933 "the Politburo authorised the issue of over 800,000 tons of grain as seed to North Caucasus, Ukraine, the Lower-Volga Region, Urals and Kazakhstan; and a further 400,000 tons was issued before the end of the spring sowing. ... Between February and July no fewer than thirty-five Politburo decisions and Sovnarkom decrees - all secret or top-secret - authorised in total the issue of 320,000 tons of grain for food." This included 194,000 tons of food aid for Ukraine. A total of `nearly 2 million tons' was issued for seed, food and fodder.

To claim the famine is intentional is ludicrous- why would they send aid if their plan was extermination? I have removed "genocide" and "terror" from the introduction. As I have said many times, the intentionality of the famine is the subject of debate, and the intro should be balanced.

112.215.36.185 (talk) 04:29, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Has it been noted that even the Ukraianian President has denied that it was a genocide against the Ukraianian people? - Sman November 19 2012

'Морити голодом'?

The lede says:

"The Holodomor (or Golodomor) (Ukrainian: Голодомор, 'Морити голодом', literal translation Killing by hunger)"

I am wondering what is the source for this statement. In actuality, both "gholod" (hunger) and "mor" (plague, pestilence) are nouns, and combination of two nouns gives a noun too in Slavic languages. "Holodomor" is definitely a noun, why it is (retro)translated as 'Морити голодом' ("Морити" (to kill) is a verb)? IMO, a literal translation is "wholesale deaths caused by famine".--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:46, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Both versions are WP:OR unless there is a source for the etymology. The Ukrainian article doesn't explain if the term comes from "Морити голодом" or from "голод" + "мор"; it just begins with "Голодомо́р 1932–1933 рокі..." I suggest following the current Ukrainian article by giving the proper name. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 19:43, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Then they should be removed.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:58, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, we do have the source provided by Martin in the section above describing the etymology. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 23:53, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

That the word was derived from two nouns, "golod" and "mor" is obvious and noone can argue about that. What is not obvious is conversion of the noun into a verb. To explain my point to those who doesn't read Ukrainian, if we translate both parts to English we will get: Ukrainian: Голодомор, 'Морити голодом' -> English: Hungerplague, 'To starve smb to death'. In other words, meaning of first and the second parts are totally different. In addition, let me explain you that 'Морити голодом' has two meanings, literal and allegoric. Literal meaning is "to starve someone to death", whereas allegoric meaning is "not to feed someone properly" (non-lethally). For example, it can be said about some slim child that his mother 'морила (him) голодом'. Again, what I object to is the phrase 'Морити голодом', which does not reflect the meaning of the word "Holodomor".--Paul Siebert (talk) 00:26, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

My 5 cents here. "Мор" is a noun for the verb "морити". But "мор" itself is not a common word, so I guess this is the reason why somebody put "морити" into the article - just to explain one of the roots of the "Голодомор" word to Ukrainian-speaking people better.--DixonD (talk) 11:33, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Paul is incorrect. Pestilence is CHUMA in Ukrainian. MOR is large scale unnatural death in ukrainian, and it is etymologically related to Latin MORS, Italian MORTE etc. --Galassi (talk) 13:02, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Firstly, etymology of Ukrainian "Mor" ("Mop" in Cyrillic) is related to Ukrainian "умирати" ("umiraty", to die). The root of this word is "mor"/"mir" (in Slavic languages "o" and "i" can interchange, or even disappear completely, as in Czech/SerboCroatian "Smtr" - "death", which has the same root as "mor").

Secondly, the archaic name of plague ("chuma") is "morovaya yazva" ("deadly disease"). If was The disease, so the word "mor" was used both for plague b(narrow meaning) and for large epidemic or any other mass deaths (wide meaning). --Paul Siebert (talk) 17:37, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, ultimately the same PIE root *mr as English "murder" and Latin mortuus ('dead'). ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:36, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Yazva is LESION, not a desease per se. And Morovaya Y. is a old Russian term. Mor is used in the sense of epidemic, but the nuance is large scale death, not a large scale infection.--Galassi (talk) 20:27, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

The name of anthrax is "sibirskaya yazva" in Russian, and this is not an old term. Regarding your next statement, I agree, there is no direct linkage between "mor" and infection. However, I am not sure I understand the points of disagreement. Is it just an exercise in linguistics?--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:39, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Anthrax manifests itself as a lesion when it infects the skin (see its article for some lovely pictures), so I think сибирская язва likely intends the "lesion" meaning. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:41, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Bubonic plague also manifests itself as a lesion. The same is true for some other diseases, e.g. smallpox. In any event, we are discussing primarily the word "mor".--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:41, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

My point is that MOR is a large scale unnatural death, not sword-inflicted, in Ukrainian.--Galassi (talk) 21:17, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Death toll again

I noticed description of this issue again drifted to complete nonsense. The infobox gives "5.4–12.5 million (scholarly estimates) 4.5 million, 10 million (some claims)", which is totally obscure for me: what is the need to provide "some claims" if they are within the range of scholarly estimates? I remove "some claims" as redundant. In addition, we are interested only in what reliable (scholarly) sources say. To reproduce rumors is not our task. If some (non-scholarlt) source says something, it is minority views at best, so it belongs to the article's body, not to the infobox.
Moreover, the range of 5.4 12.5 million directly contradicts to the lede, which gives 2.4 - 7.5 (I believe we do not combine obsolete and new data together). By the way, neither Snyder (a source for the first figure) nor Marples (a source for the second figure) are specialists in Soviet famine.
Regarding "Early estimates of the death toll by scholars and government officials varied greatly; anywhere between 1.8[7] and 12 million[8] ethnic Ukrainians were said to have been killed", that is a direct manipulation with sources: I do not understand why Wheathcroft's 2001 work was described as an early estimate. Probably, that was an attempt to understate importance of the works of this author. Secondly, believe you or not, buy Rosefielde's work (ref 8) is devoted to excess mortality in the USSR as whole, and it contains no mention of Ukraine or Ukrainians. Similarly, Wheatcroft writes about famine in Ukraine, and it does not mention neither ethnic Ukrainians not Ukrainians at all. Therefore, the statement about "ethnic Ukrainians" is not supported by these sources, and it is a one more attempt to bring nationalistic component into the discourse.
I fixed the most blatant errors and misinterpretations, and, upon looking at the sources more carefully I probably return to this issue again in close future.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:12, 24 November 2012 (UTC) PS. I removed mention of death toll in Kuban. That is beyond the article's scope, unless someone will demonstrate that the idea that Ukrainians as a nation were specifically targeted throughout of the USSR. That would be hard to do, because Kazakhs and Russians were severely affected too. This article is about the famine in Ukraine, not about the famine of the Ukrainians (unless someone attempts to make territorial claims).--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:22, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

This isn't in accordance with the consensus established in the massive discussions during the full protections of 2010 and 2011 in which you participated, IIRC. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:48, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Didn't understand. Do you imply that by fixing direct misinterpretations and inaccuracies I violated consensus? Please, keep in mind that local; consensus has no precedence over the policy, so if some source says nothing about deaths of "ethnic Ukrainians", no consensus can prevent me from removal of this statement. In addition, the last mediation process was terminated not because we came to some consensus but because the parties lost interest to the process. However, if you disagree with some concrete edits I made, let's discuss.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:58, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

The death-toll question was hotly debated and a consensus was formed in the 2010 session; see various threads and the lovely coloured table in Archive 15.

Kuban is discussed by some scholars as a part of the Holodomor (see Graziosi's review of the literature discussed here, which you stated "is well written, contains persuasive arguments, and performs a good overview of the existing studies of all major Holodomor scholars."). If we are to remove it outright on arbitrary geographical grounds, we should similarly remove outright any mentions of connections to the general Soviet famine as "beyond the article's scope". ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 18:25, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Again, consensus has no precedence over the policy. If some source does not discuss deaths of ethnic Ukrainians, it cannot be used for the statement about Ukrainian deaths (independently on the local consensus). If some source is recent, it cannot be presented as obsolete. Regarding Graziosi, if you mean her 2003 article, it is about Soviet famine and Holodomor, so the discussion of Kuban was quite appropriate there.

In addition, I see no evidence that any consensus has been achieved about representation of Holodomor as a famine that was separate from the Great Soviet famine of 1932-33, which affected the Ukrainian part of Soviet population specifically. As Ellman said, the problem is mainly in the fact that Ukrainians, in contrast to Kazakhs or Russians, have large diaspora. --Paul Siebert (talk) 20:51, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

General "policy" (since you don't specify) is open to interpretation, whereas a specific wording reached through weeks of discussion is a very concrete thing—especially for a contentious topic as this.

Since you agree that Kuban deaths and the Soviet context are related, I will strip the article of mentions of the latter in accordance. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 08:44, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Obviously, I meant WP:V ("Attribute all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged to a reliable, published source using an inline citation.") and WP:NPOV ("Indicate the relative prominence of opposing views.") In our case, if some source tells nothing about death of 10 million of ethnic Ukrainians (and about Ukrainians at all), no local consensus can overrule that. Similarly, if some source is recent, it cannot be described as "early" (independently on consensus).

Your removal of the mention of the Great Soviet famine is totally illogical: obviously, not only Kuban deaths, but Holodomor itself is related to the Soviet context (and we have plethora of sources that say that). Therefore, I see absolutely no reason for removal of the links to the Great Soviet famine. I restore it, and I propose you instead of starting an edit war to discuss the following question: was Holodomor the famine of ethnic Ukrainians, the Ukrainian name of the part of the Soviet famine in the territories with predominantly Ukrainian population, or the famine within the borders of contemporary Ukraine? That would help us to come to an agreement about the article's scope, because the text modified by me was telling about Holodomor as a famine of ethnic Ukrainians, which seems to be not what majority sources say. --Paul Siebert (talk) 14:48, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

I am certainly not advocating for any "10 million" number here, please don't paint what I am saying as such. I am myself acting in defence of NPOV with regards to your troublesome removal of any mention Kuban deaths. NPOV does not mean present "what majority sources say" and purge the rest—it's a balancing act. Some scholars do include Kuban/N. Caucasus with UkSSR in discussing the Holodomor, and that should be mentioned per policy. See e.g. Graziosi's "well written" and "persuasive" overview: "we are in fact dealing with what it would be more correct to call, on a pan-Soviet level, the 1931-1933 famines, which had of course common causes and a common background, but included at least two very different and special phenomena: the Kazakhstan famine-cum-epidemics of 1931-1933 and the Ukrainian-Kuban … Holodomor of late 1932 to early 1933." IMO the previous wording was fine ("but the number increases significantly when the deaths inside heavily Ukrainian-populated Kuban are included"), but for the sake of compromise, it could be softened to "Some scholars additionally include deaths in the heavily Ukrainian-populated Kuban, which increases the death toll significantly". But omitting Kuban deaths outright is in violation of NPOV.

We do not define the scope. Should you, Paul Siebert, choose to write a book on the topic, you may do so as you please. We merely present the major and significant minor scholarly viewpoints, and I don't think that every scholar's definition of the "scope" here is 100% the same. Removing Kuban is like removing any debate on "genocide" just because it is not a majority viewpoint—indeed, the two are likely linked. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:43, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Firstly, since you haven't explained what concrete my edit violated previously achieved consensus, I concluded that you criticesed all changes. I am glad to hear that the figures are not the subject of controversy. Did I understand you correct that removal of Kuban is the only your objection? If yes, please explain the following. We have two articles, the Soviet famine of 1932-1933 and Holodomor. The former article defines Holodomor as a part of the Soviet famine. In that situation, we definitely need to define the scope of each of two articles, to avoid direct contradiction. Otherwise, we will face WP:CFORK problem.

By the way, by writing "We do not define the scope" you were totally wrong: not only we define the scope of each particular article, such a decision is our own prerogative (of course, the decision should be made based on reliable sources, however, that should be our own decision). Again, to include Kuban under a pretext that Holodomor was a famine that affected ethnic Ukrainians, you must provide an evidence that Holodomor was directed against Ukrainians only (and that idea is universally accepted). Alternatively, Kuban can be included if we define Holodomor as a Ukrainian name for the Soviet famine in Ukrainian speaking territories. That would be more logical, and that would not cause objections from me. However, if we are speaking about Holodomor as a phenomenon that was totally separate from the Soviet famine, or as the famine within the borders of contemporary Ukraine, Kuban cannot and should not be included.--Paul Siebert (talk) 06:14, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

If only what is "universally accepted" is to be included, we might as well just blank the article. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:15, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

No ad absurdum argumentation, please. Of course, the fact that Holodomor did occur, and that it killed millions is universally accepted (we do not have to take into account fringe views).

Regarding your POV tag, I think, it would be more productive from your side to join a discussion of the questions I asked. --Paul Siebert (talk) 02:17, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

I'll cease the ad absurdum arguments if you move your arguments ex absurdo ;)

I really shouldn't have to with you, but allow me to state the relevant policy again. WP:NPOV: "Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources." This means that we precisely do not select one single "scope" that we decide to be WP:TRUTH and prohibit mention of any others found in the literature. Similarly, be mindful of WP:SYNTH: "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources … This would be a synthesis of published material to advance a new position, which is original research." This means that any defined "scope" must be found in the sources—we cannot create some chimera out of cherrypicked parts of several sources to advance one "scope".

Your removal of Kuban definitely fails NPOV. Some reliable sources do include Kuban as part of the Holodomor—including Graziosi, upon whom you previously bestowed such effervescent praise, but about whom now you are curiously silent. This means that we cannot exclude it from mention in the article. Of course it would be made clear that this is only the view of a smaller group of scholars, but that is all part of assigning due weight.

This whole "Define That Scope!" game treads dangerously close to making a SYNTH mess. Again, we cannot define the scope—that is OR. We must go directly to the sources and see what they say. From there, we can work on deciding on which scholars can be grouped together and how much weight can be assigned to each group.

This is what the "policy" is. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 22:05, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

"Define the scope" has nothing to do with synthesis: no reliable sources exist that teach us how do we have to write Wikipedia, so that is our own duty to decide what should be and what should not be included in one or another article. In this concrete case, under "defining the scope" I mean to define what majority sources see under Holodomor. However, that is just a part of the issue. We also need to define what the Soviet Famine of 1932-33 was according to them. Again, we have two articles, one of them says that Soviet famine was a famine that affected Ukraine, North Caucasus, Volga, Kazakhstan, whereas another article says that that the separate famine affected the Ukrainians only. Obviously, the second article is a daughter article of the first one, and all relevant links from the latter to the former must be added.

In connection to that, I am asking again: do you think Holodomor was the name for the Soviet famine of 1932-33 in territories with predominantly Ukrainian population, or it was the famine that was directed specifically against ethnic Ukrainians? If you support the former definition, then, yes, Kuban should be added. However, if you insist on the second definition, then we probably should significantly modify the article, because Wheatcroft, late Conquest, Vallin, Ellman and many other author do not separate Ukrainian victims from other nationalities. They are speaking about Soviet famine in Ukraine and other territories, so we should probably use them as a sources for the Soviet famine article, not for this one.--Paul Siebert (talk) 02:59, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

There was a reason I put my thoughts on SYNTH second: it's of secondary importance. More of a caution than a concrete objection.

Please once again review WP:NPOV and my commentary above on it—which you ignored—to find my answers to the questions you pose. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 04:41, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

If I understand you correct you argue that, since Graziosi mentioned Kuban, we must include Kuban into the article. However, as your quote from NPOV says, we have to mention it proportionally. Is the idea that Ukrainians as a ethnic group was a target the only mainstream viewpoint? I don't think so. Read, for example, Hiroaki Kuromiya, The Soviet Famine of 1932–1933 Reconsidered, Europe-Asia Studies, (2008) 60:4, 663-675:"Those who study the Great Famine from the perspective of the USSR as a whole tend to negate the specific Ukrainian factor: that the famine was in essence terror intended against ethnic Ukrainians, or a Ukrainian genocide. On the other hand, those who focus on Ukraine tend to support the Ukrainian genocide theory.".

My objection against your approach can be formulated as follows. If we write: "if North Caucasus will be included, Holodomor death toll will be even higher", the actual amount of deaths will not be affected. In actuality, we simply move some victims from one category (victims of Soviet famine) to another one (Holodomor victims). I wouldn't see any problem with that, had we agreed that Holodomor was just a part of Soviet famine (just a local name of the famine in Ukrainian speaking territories). However, since the present article pretends that it was a separate phenomenon, the approach proposed by you would be hardly acceptable. Indeed, you are talking about "representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias...", however, what do you propose to do with the works of the authors listed by me, or such authors as Hiroaki Kuromiya, who does not use the word "Holodomor" at all, and do not separate Ukrainian famine from the greater Soviet famine? How can you blame me in non-neutrality if your own views demonstrate the bias in opposite direction?--Paul Siebert (talk) 06:25, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Scholars vs politicians

In my opinion, equal weight cannot be given to the statement of politicians and to scholarly sources. I propose to separate scholarly estimates of death toll from the statement made by the politicians (in a separate subsection). The statements of politicians should be supplemented with proper commentaries from reputable scholars (if such commentaries are available).--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:04, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

No need -- as long as opinions are cited to the person holding them. Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:14, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Collect, do you want me to start the RSN discussion (similar to the discussion about Aronson) again? I recall, the last discussion demonstrated that your understanding of PSTS and RS is far from perfect. Peer-reviewed scholarly articles are the best sources for Wikipedia, whereas politicians' opinia are just opinia.-Paul Siebert (talk) 17:19, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

The question you posed was about Harper citing figures - this is not about a "peer-reviewed article on a specific topic". Really. It is about opinions as voiced by Harper, and best practice is to cite them as opinions. And "opinia" is not a valid English plural, by the way. Collect (talk) 18:09, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Re Harper, what do you mean?--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:51, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

How is a Canadian prime minister relevant to this article? TFD (talk) 23:08, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

The prime minister is a leader of a country with large Ukrainian population, therefore, his opinion is relevant. However, since he is not a scholar, he probably reproduced the figures prepared by some speechwriter, who either took them from some scholarly source or invented by himself (sometimes, exaggerations or understatement are the tool in political rhetoric). Therefore, we cannot check where the figure were taken from; they are unreliable. Nevertheless, this statement shows the attitude of Canadian establishment to the issue, and is quite relevant. By saying that, I do not imply it should not be placed into appropriate context, and supplemented with necessary commentaries.--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:24, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

You need a source that draws those connections. TFD (talk) 18:52, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

^ Robert W. Davies, Stephen G. Wheatcroft: The Years of Hunger. Soviet Agriculture 1931-1933. Houndmills 2004. ISBN 3-412-10105-2
^ Davies, Norman (2006). Europe East and West. London: Jonathan Cape. p. 145. ISBN 0224069241. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
^ Baumeister, Roy (1999). Evil: Inside Human Violence and Cruelty. Macmillan. p. 179. ISBN 0805071652. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
^ Sternberg, Robert (2008). The Nature of Hate. Cambridge University Press. p. 67. ISBN 0521896983. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
^ Cite error: The named reference britannica was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[1] Robert W. Davies, Stephen G. Wheatcroft: The Years of Hunger. Soviet Agriculture 1931-1933. Houndmills 2004. ISBN 3-412-10105-2

[2] Davies, Norman (2006). Europe East and West. London: Jonathan Cape. p. 145. ISBN 0224069241. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

[3] Baumeister, Roy (1999). Evil: Inside Human Violence and Cruelty. Macmillan. p. 179. ISBN 0805071652. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

[4] Sternberg, Robert (2008). The Nature of Hate. Cambridge University Press. p. 67. ISBN 0521896983. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

[britannica-5] Cite error: The named reference britannica was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[1]

[2]

[3]

[4]

[5]