Talk:Hin Tagher

Control

@AntonSamuel: Looks like clashes broke out in this area and Kohne Taghlar has been recaptured by Azerbaijan according to hetq.am editor. Source. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 15:12, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

@CuriousGolden: Yeah, I saw it on Liveuamap as well. AntonSamuel (talk) 15:26, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Interesting stuff. Let's see what happens and we can edit once things are clearer. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 15:31, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Seems like Azerbaijan captured Chaylaqqala as well. Source. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 15:59, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Liveuamap has confirmed that Azerbaijan has captured the 2 villages. Source. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 17:42, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

@CuriousGolden: After that report, Liveuamap posted another - stating that fighting was still going on [1] and then that Russian troops arrived [2] and that Armenia and Russia came to an agreement regarding the holdout pocket [3] AntonSamuel (talk) 17:46, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

The source for the Russian peacekeepers is Sputnik Armenia (which is a deprecated source, but that's irrelevant in this case) and they don't say they've arrived in the villages. The statement says they're close to the villages. Regardless, Russians can enter the area even if it's under Azeri control to stop the fighting, so this doesn't mean anything and I agree that we need to wait more to know who controls them. I'm just updating this discussion with new sources. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 17:53, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Seems like the Armenian commander/politician who defended the villages during the war states that they've been captured by Azerbaijan. Source. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 17:56, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Curious - I'll keep watching the situation, hopefully it will clear up soon enough. Seems like he states he was in Stepanakert when clashes broke out and calling for a demonstration at the Russian base nearby. AntonSamuel (talk) 18:13, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Liveuamap reports that negotiations through the Russians are underway to restore former positions at the time of the ceasefire: [4] [5] AntonSamuel (talk) 20:25, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

This is again wrong translation by liveuamap. The source says that the Armenian commander I mentioned earlier talked to the Russian peacekeepers and will try to restore previous positions. Liveuamap has become really unreliable recently. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 20:30, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Armenian President has confirmed that Kohne Taghlar has been captured by Azerbaijan, he also states that Azeri forces have entered Chaylaggala. Source: SputnikArmenia. I'll change this article now since it's confirmed. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 07:41, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

It has now been confirmed through geolocation that Kohne Taghlar is under Azerbaijani control. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 11:33, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

The Russian MoD has released a new map with Hin Tagher on the Artsakh side of the border [6]. Seems like the reports about returning to previous positions were correct. AntonSamuel (talk) 14:01, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Several sources are reporting that the change in Russian MoD map is temporary as there's no post, marked on the newly included territories. This is most likely a temporary addition as Russian peacekeepers are in the area to discuss/negotiate the fate of the villages. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 14:37, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

That explanation sounds pretty implausible, but I'm sure more information will turn up soon. AntonSamuel (talk) 14:41, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

@AntonSamuel: Aaand, it's turned out to be true. New map of Russian peacekeepers excludes Chaylaggala & Kohne Taghlar. I'll still wait more before making an edit since I want to reach a consensus here and be sure 100%. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 20:34, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

This is a very strange development - considering the reports from pro-Russian media lately, though international politics time and time again proves to be very volatile and surprising. AntonSamuel (talk) 21:40, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

I think, we should remove (de-facto Artsakh). — Preceding unsigned comment added by EljanM (talk • contribs) 09:01, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Head of the village has now confirmed that Russian peacekeepers are out of the village and it was returned to Azerbaijan. Source. Head of Chaylaggala says Russian peacekeepers are in the village for now, but will leave and it will also be returned to Azerbaijan. Source. AntonSamuel I think we can edit this page now, what do you think? — CuriousGolden (T·C) 11:27, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

From the sources available so far, it seems that Azerbaijani troops captured Hin Tagher and entered Khtsaberd, and then Russian peacekeepers arrived at least in Khtsaberd (if they didn't arrive in Hin Tagher as well) and are now negotiating with the Azerbaijanis. The reason for the map being changed back and forth like it was is unclear. If the article needs to be clarified with regard to control - I don't have a problem with that, as long as it's based on what we actually know and explains the current ambiguity of the situation. There are still conflicting reports regarding control and the ultimate fate of the area - Azatutyun reported that Azerbaijani troops left Khtsaberd village, but remain close by: [7]. The attack on the villages may be considered to be a breach of the ceasefire agreement - which probably will not sit well with Russia unless they for some reason (practical, political) choose not to interpret it as such. AntonSamuel (talk) 11:59, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Okay, we'll wait a bit more then. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 12:40, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

@AntonSamuel: I don't think we should update the article with every new information as Wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS. Let's keep it as Artsakh control until things are clearer. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 14:30, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

I considered it to be a useful addition to mention Azatutyun's report since RFE/RL is generally unbiased and reliable, if individual events shouldn't be featured then the current section about the events should be considerably shortened down as well - only mentioning that the current situation is unclear. AntonSamuel (talk) 14:36, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

I agree with that. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 14:47, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Fist things first, i do not think Azerbaijani side violated agreement it is other way around Armenian troops managed to retake the villages either just before ceasefire or post ceasefire hence that is why it was not included in any maps from the day of deployment of peacekeeping forces, only on November 20-25th Armenians media started showing the pictures of the partisan fighters comparing them Gagerin Njdeh(no comment), One thing for sure is that it is not in Armenian hands anymore, i have provided Razminfo's post as well, pretty much everyone from Armenian side has already said that these villages are under Azerbaijani control and yesterday and todays map show prove the point that Russian peacekeepers temporarily entered village and left so i really really don't see a point of not changing the color, i'm not sure what has to happen to pretty much prove the direct and indirect sources that support the claims i'm making above....i highly doubt Pashnian or anyone from his team will address this issue Agulani (talk) 16:56, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

You're making weird comparisons, but I do agree that it's confirmed that it's under Azerbaijani control by literally everyone. I'm just waiting a little more until AntonSamuel is sure about it as well. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 18:29, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Both villages are now under Azeri control as confirmed by geolocation. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 19:24, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Kommersant also reports that the 2 villages' fate was resolved in favour of Azerbaijan. Source. @AntonSamuel: Can we make the edit now, because I have no idea what other source/confirmation you might be waiting for. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 19:27, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

According to Kamo Petrosyan, the Artsakh head of the the Hadrut region, speaking to Azatutyun: Hin Tagher is currently under Azerbaijani control and Khtsaberd is under the control of Russian peacekeepers, and it doesn't seem like it's been handed over (at least not yet if that's the plan). [8] AntonSamuel (talk) 20:40, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Can we change Kohne Taghlar then? — CuriousGolden (T·C) 04:35, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

There are no Russian peacekeepers in either the Kohne Taghlar and Chaylaggala villages. They shared a new map yesterday. User:EljanM talk — Preceding undated comment added 07:25, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

@CuriousGolden: Looking at the media reports and Liveuamap - the situation still seems a bit volatile and uncertain [9], but it seems like the encircled Armenian forces withdrew with the help of Armenian special forces: [10] [11]. Not sure about what the situation with the Russian peacekeepers is. If you think changing the pages is appropriate at this point - you can be the judge of that. AntonSamuel (talk) 09:49, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Today, 17 december, yet another russian map shows these villages outside of peacekeepers' zone, on Azeri side. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.46.69.127 (talk) 17:41, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Hin Tagher is in Hadrut Province of the unrecognized Republic of Artsakh

The subject holds true **regardless whether it is under Artsakh's government control or not**. That is a territorial designation, and it is a fact, and it is referenced. If you have facts that contradict this, please share. If you want to word it a different way, please give it a shot. If you want to remove it just because you do not like this fact, you may not. I am waiting for a reply here, no longer on your talk page, GoldenCurious. --RaffiKojian (talk) 09:09, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

I'll copy-paste my answer to you from my talk page: We don't add Artsakh's provinces if it's not de facto controlled by it. It's not an independent, recognised state, so their claim to the territory has zero value on Wikipedia unless they actually control it. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 09:11, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

It is in fact de-facto independent. That is a type of independence. And its claims are the reason for a fresh war and thousands of deaths, which certainly makes it relevant. So, what exactly is wrong with including additional sourced information, other than the fact that you do not seem to like it? --RaffiKojian (talk) 09:17, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

It's already in History section. The country is not recognised by any UN member, so their claim is irrelevant for the lead, especially if they don't even de facto control it. I could start my own country and claim a village I don't control, it still wouldn't make it relevant. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 09:20, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

I think unfortunately you're being disingenuous here. Obviously there is a relevance if a de facto country claims something versus you. And the claim is current, not "historical". Does anyone else want to chime in? --RaffiKojian (talk) 09:28, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

WP:ASSUMEGOODFAITH and I'll let others comment cause your argument seems unconstructive. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 09:31, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Kohne Taglar is not clear at the moment, though likely under Azeri control. But lets give an example for the Hadrut itself. Hadrut: de-jure Azerbaijan, de-facto Azerbaijan. It's fully Azerbaijan then, the end. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.156.71.30 (talk) 09:39, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

I agree that the city of Hadrut and this village should be treated the same in this question. But they're both different than say, Gyanja, which no existing state (whether de-jure or de-facto) claims nor has them in their territorial maps. And negotiations are ongoing about Karabakh. So the claims seem relevant still. --RaffiKojian (talk) 09:49, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Why no existing state? Of course it is, Hadrut is de-facto and de-jure Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan has the whole Karabakh in their recognized state maps. I think mentioning the history of the town and the vilage is fair, which is already done. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.156.71.30 (talk) 10:10, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

But the claim is not history, it is a current claim. If the government of Artsakh or Armenia renounced the claim, I would agree that the history section is where it belongs. It is claimed by a de-facto independent country. That is a fact. Why should this current fact be omitted? Nothing that has been said here seems to be reason to exclude this rather relevant and current fact from the top. --RaffiKojian (talk) 10:21, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

You seem to not understand that Artsakh is an unrecognised country, which makes their claims completely irrelevant when they don't control it. Any person could claim a random area, it still wouldn't make their claim relevant unless they're internationally recognised by at least one UN member. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 10:26, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

You keep saying that it's irrelevant simply because it's unrecognized, but that's just your opinion, and it is completely different than "any person" making a "random claim", which again, is disingenuous. You have yet to give one *real* reason why this fact should not be included, other than your opinion that anything that is unrecognized is irrelevant - even though it clearlly is not, or a lot more people would be alive right now. --RaffiKojian (talk) 10:41, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Sure, we'll allow others to comment then since you think not agreeing with your opinion is disingenuous. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 10:43, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

It is your analogy (comparing Artsakh's claims to an individuals), which you've used twice now, which I have twice called disingenuous. --RaffiKojian (talk) 11:29, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

@RaffiKojian: The village of Kohna Taglar is completely controlled by the Azerbaijani Armed Forces. It doesn't matter if the fake country claims it! EljanM (TALK) 18:36, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 20 December 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. I am looking at the weight of arguments. Those supporting point at compelling rationales that align with article titles policy, such as COMMONNAME. Those opposing the move do not present policy compliant reasons for their position. Parishan, for example, cites an Azerbaijani-language source, which is completely irrelevant, we only care what the topic is called in English-language sources. We also do not place much value in the official name of entities. (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 07:15, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

---

Köhnə Tağlar → Hin Tagher – per WP:COMMONNAME and also used by reliable sources including Reuters, Irish Times, France 24, BBC News and etc.

Hin Tagher = 988,000 results

Köhnə Tağlar = 85,200 results Sincerely, Գարիկ Ավագյան (talk) 11:56, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

• Support - There is also a larger requested move discussion going on here: [12] regarding all the villages and towns in the former NKAO that had Armenian majorities in 1989 to be moved to their most likely common names - their Armenian names. AntonSamuel (talk) 11:58, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

AntonSamuel I think that it will be correct to keep the names of cities and villages that were used before the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict like, for example, it is in the Russian Wikipedia. Renaming cities nowadays from both sides seems like to have more political reasons. Sincerely, Գարիկ Ավագյան (talk) 17:42, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

• Support - this is the common name per the given sources. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 12:24, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose - this village is controlled by Azerbaijani forces and this village is a part of Azerbaijan (de-facto|de-jure) EljanM (TALK) 14:53, 20 December 2020
• Support - I agree that the name used by the ethnic group that was a majority before the conflict is the name we should use here. In this case, Hin Tagher. --RaffiKojian (talk) 17:57, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose - De-facto and de-jure part of Azerbaijan, must have Azerbaijani name for it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.46.69.127 (talk) 18:00, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
• Support the vast majority of the sources, for some reason, prefers this name. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 19:32, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
• Support. Native name Addictedtohistory (talk) 07:01, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose The Armenian name is Hin Tahger but as the village is now completely de-facto and de-jure under Azerbaijani control i think that we should stay with the current name. User:Carthago814 (talk) 09:22, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. Currently the village is beyond any doubt under Azerbaijani control and unpopulated. The name Köhnə Tağlar goes back to 1992, which is long enough for it to be considered a common name. Parishan (talk) 06:21, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

returned to Azerbaijani control

From the statement "Subsequently, it was reported that Hin Tagher and Chaylaqqala were returned to Azerbaijani control as Russian peacekeepers removed the area from their map of responsibility on 14 December 2020.". What does "returned to" refer to? Is this referring to Azerbaijani control near Soviet time, or is this referring to control within the same war? If it is the later does this imply the holdout lost control then regained control and the Azerbaijani forces then returned control? This is why it is ambiguous. Maidyouneed (talk) 14:40, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Maidyouneed, the village was captured by Azerbaijan during the ceasefire violations following the 2020 war. However, the area, including Hin Tagher was put under Russian control following Azerbaijan's capture. A day later, Russians moved out of the area and returned it to Azerbaijan. This is what the context is. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 14:43, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

If a town is being returned to Azerbaijan, there must have been a previous period from which Azerbaijan had control. Which period is that? It is not clear.Maidyouneed (talk) 14:48, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Maidyouneed, clashes broke out on the afternoon of 12 December 2020, when Azerbaijan captured it. By night, Russians had included the area in their control zone. On 13 December 2020, they removed it out of their control zone and the villages were returned to Azerbaijan. Since Azerbaijan didn't get it with fighting the last time, using "captured" doesn't seem right. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 14:53, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

I've used the wording "came under Azerbaijani control" Maidyouneed (talk) 15:05, 15 February 2021 (UTC)