Talk:Gold/Archive 1

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Archive for Talk:Gold prior to July 2006.

NPOV

Why's the neutrality of this article being disputed? -- Schnee 12:48 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I wonder that, too. The dispute was flagged by Eszett, but it's not at all obvious to me why. The flag doesn't seem to add any value to the page. Andrewa 10:28 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Removed idiodic and insulting dispute notice. --mav 15:59 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Whatever the supposed dispute, it should be described in the talk page. This is especially important in an article as long, and with such a variety of information, as this one, but IMO it should be a matter of course anyway. It makes it difficult, but I agree there's no obvious basis for an NPOV dispute. Great article. Andrewa 17:57 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Thanks for the support and compliment. :) --mav

In any event, the edit which added the NPOV notice had a blank summary. Kinda leaves you guessing... --Trainspotter

Modern cultural aspects of gold

Hmmmm... I see the new section heading and note I added have both been deleted mere minutes later, and the cultural stuff I had started to put up is now in "history". Interesting approach, and well written. But the material I want to add is about cultural aspects of Gold now, rather than its history. I'll leave this project a while and think about it. Or would someone else like to have a go? Andrewa 23:53, 30 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Alloys used in jewellery

It will be interesting if somebody can provide information about the most typical alloys used in jewelry Cuye

10 karat is frequently used for rings and other items of jewelry that will recieve wear.

Peak price

The high price of gold was $850 per ounce which occurred in 1980, not $620, correct?

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Correct. Gold Peaked at $850 per ounce in 1980, but the average price in 1980 was $620. Please amend the article accordingly, if needed. Although 22:11, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

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Any predictions as to what the price of gold may rise to in the next 1-2 years? I've heard it can go as high as $1,000? I was thinking closer to $800, but look at this link: [article http://applesofgold.com/jewelryinfo/risinggoldprices.html]. Although not a completely objective source, this is the not the first place I have seen this mentioned. Any thoughts?

Well, of course, folks who have put a lot of money into gold in the past few years would like the price to stay high. Some things to take into account:

• The gold price is usually reported in U.S. dollars. So it responds to fluctuations in the value of the dollar wrt other currencies. When the dollar falls, the price of gold rises.
• Speculation happens. The price of a commodity responds to demand for that commodity, even if much of this demand is driven purely by speculators who see the price going up.
• Many of the folks you see touting gold in columns and blogs online are people who own gold and would like to see the price stay up. So they are likely to present a rosier view.

Of course, it is possible that the price of gold will hit $1000 or any other figure you care to name. However, if so, this may simply be a speculative bubble (as the 1980 peak seemed to be) or a response to the value of the dollar. But on the other hand, go compute the historical ratio between the price of gold or silver, and the price of gasoline ... hmm ... --FOo 21:59, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Perodic table listing missing

The right hand bar is missing the perodic table listing at the top like the other elements (i.e. radium). ShaunMacPherson

What was prohibited in the US between 1933 and 1975?

"Within the United States, the private possession of gold except as jewelry and coin collecting was banned between 1933 and 1975."

Surely other uses must have been permitted too - it has significant industrial uses, and was certainly used in computer circuitry during this period. Does anyone have a reference to what exactly was prohibited? Securiger 01:43, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

Reference added--1pezguy 07:20, Jul 17, 2004 (UTC)

NPOV of hedge value of gold

"However, gold becomes particularly desirable in times of extremely weak confidence and during hyperinflation because gold maintains its value even as fiat money becomes worthless."

NPOV? You have to be extremely carefull, because many gold investors constantly make statements and doom and gloom websites purporting to show the stable value of gold throughout economic crisis.

Colours of reflected light

"... caused by the fact that the plasmon frequency of this element lies in the visible range, which causes red and yellow light to be reflected and blue light to be absorbed."

Unless my physics is mistaken, shouldn't it reflect red and _green_ light?

No.. It's saying that frequencies in the red-yellow area of the spectrum are reflected, and higher frequencies are absorbed.. The red/green/blue thing is biology, not physics. Pfalstad 01:33, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

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Value of gold

I wonder, why is gold considered to be valuable? I know it looks great but is that why? I am not asking because I don't think it should be considered as such, I'm just curioous. Jaberwocky6669 21:00, Aug 4, 2004 (UTC)

It is rare and does not degrade. --mav 07:00, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

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Which industry does the london benchmark provide for, financial? gold?, maybe it should say something like .......benchmark figure to the ?finacial? and ?gold? industry and ?general public?. Tridy 15:47, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

disputed

As I explained in Making Stargate a Reality in the Stargate Technical forum of Ascifi.com (Ignore that temperature; it's a calcuotypo!), gold's ductibility and malleability are exceeded by at least three other metals, at STP even. If you look around the periodic table, you should see that for yourself without going into my essay.

Then it should read "It is one of the most malleable and ductile metals known." Tridy 03:10, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Where did you get the gold alloy information? I'm especially interested in that AuAl combo. lysdexia 08:37, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

http://www.ajm-magazine.com/features/0704/purple.php Tridy 03:10, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

coating

Can you say how it works? for example doesn't it have some diamond atoms mixed?

there's no such things as diamond atoms! Diamond is tetrahedral (3-D) carbon!! Also, it wasn't mentioned that gold based comounds have been used for cancer treatment as well. - Frances 10/6/05

Gold-colored

"It is one of only three metals which have an actual easily-identifiable color; the other two are copper, which is red, and caesium, which has a gold color."

Assuming gold could be described as having a gold colour, this is probably a bad choice of words to explain how caesium is easily-identifiable, so I changed it to 'pale golden color'. http://www.cs.rochester.edu/users/faculty/nelson/cesium/cesium_color.html Moogsi 20:12, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

We describe gold as yellow, so perhaps we can describe cesium as pale yellow? --FOo 01:05, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, seeing as gold and copper are described in terms of flat colours rather than likening them to metals, that's probably a better idea. Moogsi 21:42, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Socialism and Gold

That section is very interesting, but it says more about socialism than it does about gold. Maybe it should be moved to the socialism article?

Well, it seems to be basically a collection of Marxist opinions on the value of gold. My guess is it might be useful at exchange value or somewhere else ... unless we get a larger section here on the history of the value of gold. --FOo 03:55, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Hmm. Reconsidering, how about gold standard? --FOo 03:58, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Removed it - doesn't seem to be needed here.

==Socialism and Gold==

Historically, and to present day, gold has been considered a highly valuable material in almost all cultures, and the struggle for possession of gold has even been the direct or indirect cause of wars. But not all political ideologies share this view on gold. The Marxist theory, although fully understanding the present value of gold, does not believe that the importance of gold is everlasting. According to Marxism and those who believe in it, a future communist society would be a world where everything was free, and therefore there would be no need for money. Gold would also lose its value.

The Russian Communist leader Lenin had the opinion that in a future communist world, gold could be used to manufacture toilets. “When we are victorious on a world scale I think we shall use gold for the purpose of building public lavatories in the streets of some of the largest cities of the world. This would be the most just and most educational way of utilising gold for the benefit of these generations which have not forgotten how, for the sake of gold, ten million men were killed and thirty million maimed in [the First World War.]” Lenin, The Importance Of Gold Now And After The Complete Victory Of Socialism, 1921. [1]

The American Communist leader James P. Cannon however pointed out that the revolutionary socialist government would make important usage of gold for a temporary time during the transition from capitalism to socialism. “...the new workers’ government will lay official hands on all the gold buried in the ground at Fort Knox, and use this gold as the basis for American money. This will be the ironic paradox of history: that it took the workers’ government to establish a sound dollar in the United States, based on gold reserves... Eventually, money will be dispensed with altogether. The fully developed socialist society will have no use for it. But in the meantime, the workers’ government will have a sound dollar regulating the national economy, and no inflation.” James P. Cannon, America Under the Workers’ Rule, 1953. [2]

“When people will have no further use for money, they will wonder what to do with all this gold, which has cost so much human labor and agony. Lenin had a theory that under socialism gold could be used, maybe, to make doorknobs for public lavatories, and things like that. But no Marxist authority would admit that in the socialist future men will dig in the earth for such a useless metal.” James P. Cannon, What Socialist America Will Look Like, 1953. [3]

Do with it as you wish. Vsmith 00:44, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I'll create a seperate article about it Socialism and Gold, under the categories Gold, Socialism, and Communism, and see what happens to it...! Bronks 27 October 2005.

Gold and food

I have read than Gold leaf can be used in food, and the article on E-numbers appears to show that it is a registered additive, along with Aluminium and Silver. Is this actual gold metal and if so should a mention go in the article? Smurrayinchester 18:44, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it is actual gold, albeit in tiny quantities. Consider Goldschlager for instance -- a liqueur that is made with tiny flakes of gold. It's simply decorative, and I doubt it has any physiological effect.

Silver, on the other hand, can accumulate in the tissues, leading to the discoloring condition argyria, in which the skin turns permanently gray or bluish. This usually happens to people who take quack medical remedies containing colloidal silver. --FOo 19:07, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

I added a link to colloidal gold here. Gene Nygaard 20:09, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

It's one of the reasons why gold is valuable. It is extremely inert, and can pass through the system intact. No nutritive or physiological effect.

gold from mercury vapor lamp

How do you produce gold from a mercury vapor lamp? It's mentioned in the article, but I can't find any other info.

• There's an article here: [4], but it would seem to be not actually possible, just a effect due to gold contamination of the mercury. Unless someone can find a better source, it should probably be removed from the article. -- Bob Mellish 22:13, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

That link is a good find! After reading it it's clear that this method doesn't work. So yes, it should be removed from the article - or better moved into the section on stuff that doesn't work.

Gold's value versus money supply

Removed the recently added subsection Gold's value versus money supply as it was a copy of the section in Gold as an investment and seemed rather much here. Seems that more of the value section could be cut also as well as the Socialism and gold section. Political rambling and money systems don't need much space here - the article is long enough already. Vsmith 22:42, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

The most important paragraph is missing!

There should be a psychology and neurobiology of gold paragraph. Does science understand how and why the brain decided gold is desirable? Is there a particular section of the human brain which can be removed, yet the guy will live but loose interest in gold and misc. shiny things like diamonds? Are animals addicted to gold (except the well known magpie)? What the about great apes?

We like it because it is useful, rare, and pretty. HighInBC 15:30, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Links Section: Remove commercial links?

I don't want to edit this subject since I haven't been involved in its development. There appear to be a number of links from this subject to external sites of a purely commercial nature. Should those be removed?

Agreed. I removed a batch of commercial links with seemingly little or no information content apart from advertizing. Restore legit. ones as you like, but justify each. Vsmith 00:39, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Confused

I don't know if anyone else feels this way, but I am really confused about alloys and the carat system. I don't know if this should be clarified in the article, but maybe someone could tell me. If gold is always mixed with an alloy then is 24 carat gold really pure gold? Is is mixed with an alloy too? hdstubbs

See Carat (purity). The answer is basically that it depends what you mean by "pure". When one says that gold is always alloyed, what this means is that it is practically impossible to remove other metals from it entirely.

It's fully possible to get very close -- 24kt gold is also called .999 fine gold, meaning that 99.9% of the mass is elemental gold. The Canadian Gold Maple Leaf coins are made of .9999 fine gold, meanning that 99.99% of the mass is gold -- no more than one part in ten thousand is base metal. So it's correct to say that the Maple Leaf is purer than 24kt, simply because the old standard for what constitutes "pure" is lower.

For jewelry, and for historical gold coins that actually circulated, there's a very good reason that pure gold was not used. (It isn't just because kings wanted to debase the currency -- although they did that too.) Pure gold is too soft to be practical for many purposes; a pure gold coin would wear out in actual circulation. --FOo 20:53, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Symbolism

The Symbolism section contained some fascinating information, but it also contained a few minor typos and grammatical errors. I have rewritten the section to fix these errors. I have preserved the facts as much as possible. --Caroline Sanford 09:25, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Attacked by chlorine?

I'm pretty sure chlorine only causes the alloy metals to corrode (like copper) but not gold itself:

http://www.daviesjewelry.com/Jewelry_tip.asp http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem03/chem03091.htm

• A terminology problem. What is commonly called "chlorine" for swimming pools, etc., isn't actually molecular chlorine, but generally a compound of chlorine like sodium hypochlorite. Chlorine gas is much more corrosive, and it will react with gold. Sodium hypochlorite is much less corrosive, and wont. --Bob Mellish 07:42, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

No, gold can be attacked by chlorine in various forms, as long as there are free chlorine ions available. This includes household bleach solutions, chlorinated swimming pools and hot tubs, even free chlorine released from domestic water supplies during showering. In general, gold is attacked by all the halogens to one degree or another. Iodine in KI solution, for example, will etch gold rapidly, and is used for that purpose in IC manufacturing. Pure gold is attacked only slowly by diluted chlorine-containing solutions. Alloys are more rapidly etched, but it is gold as well as alloying metals that is being dissolved.

"A San Francisco goldsmith"

Unsourced Sioux claim

This was just added to the article:

American Indians of the Sioux tribe called it "The yellow metal that makes the white man crazy"

This is a novel claim and needs to be cited. Anyone have a verifiable source for it? --FOo 22:31, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

• I believe this comes from a book called Black Elk Speaks.--Kevin Hanse (talk) 16:55, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I dunno... I remember my college English professor said that the man who transcribed Black Elk Speaks took extravagent liberties with Black Elk's actual words, and that large parts of what's attributed to Black Elk are made up. I don't have any references for that, so I'm not going to take out the Sioux reference. But I think we should consider taking it out. It could be true, but it sounds a lot like one of those things that European Americans attribute to Native Americans because it sounds so wise and earthy. --Allen 01:23, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. It seems too much like a stereotype. It's worth noting that gold was a much bigger deal in Spain's colonization of South America than in any white man's colonization of North America ... and moreover was in widespread use in pre-Columbian South America, too. --FOo 05:48, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Seconded. --Kevin Hanse (talk) 19:17, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Removed statement

"In the software development cycle "going gold" means releasing a version that is ready for distribution to customers, rather than a buggy beta version."

Nobody in software development says this. Pretty sure it's not even management jargon. 64.74.207.50 04:16, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

It's trade-rag talk. See golden master for what it's a parrotting imitation of. --FOo 04:41, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Alchemy & King Midas

The Greek myth of King Midas and how he had the "curse" of turning everything he touched to gold, may want to be included. That and perhaps the popular pre-renisance belief that you could turn lead into gold by adding some other element, or the process/beliefu of alchemy. Or if they are too unrelated then their articles should at least be linked to. --User:Thrawst

About merge request and general cleanup

Regarding the merge request of gold bar into here, okay, it's a gold product and quite notable as far as that goes. Its existence and manufacture should be mentioned, in one or two sentences. Better here than having a stub article. But before this goes into too much detail, keep in mind there also are tin bars, rubidium ingots, yttrium ingots, etc.

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Other things are equally important that aren't even mentioned. Little about gold leaf when there's a whole historical art craft based on it. Or the drawing of gold wire that is so important in electronics—about 100 tonnes of bond wire each year [5].pdf deserve more than a "performs critical functions" in the article. I'd rather see the image of Tutankhamun's funerary mask than of gold bars and Krugerrands.

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On the other hand, three links to gold as an investment. I'm also not interested in a whole US-centric section on their money supply. Or in speculations on the politics of Malaysia. It's utterly irrelevant to a general article to include a listing of investment stock exchanges. This article seriously has to be rebalanced, away from the money thing. Femto 18:00, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

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Gold as an investment is a "money thing", that's what the article is about and is called. However, I agree with you that there is no point having so much text referring to investments in the main gold article, if it is duplicated in the sub-article. As for the gold bar article there will be merit in it as stand alone article if the content is expanded (see gold coin, for example). There are many different weights and types of gold bars, so it would be interesting for potential investors in bullion bars. The history of gold bars would also be noteworthy. --nirvana2013 11:42, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

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In the gold article, any reference to it as an investment should be kept brief, and merely refer the user to the article gold as an investment. As for the article on gold bar, I really think it should be kept and expanded. I would like to see much more information on all the gold bars which exist, weights, sizes, countries of use, manufacture, and the uses to which bars may be put, - Central Bank gold, investment gold, trading gold, manufacturing gold, jewellery gold, momento gold etc. Watercolour 15:29, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

217.33.74.20

This user seems to be making useless edits. Thanks Edgar181, after I made two corrections, I was about to go back and revert it back a few, but got caught up trying to revert 217.33.74.20's Sodium edit...then looks like you beat me to it. Thanks. therearenospoons 12:36, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

how much gold is in a gold medal?

(165.29.94.254 21:14, 16 February 2006 UTC)

You probably mean the Olympic gold medals. They contain at least 6 grams of gold plating, the base is a 92.5% silver alloy, actually. [6] I don't believe you could legally call it a gold medal if it were jewelry. — The current nobel prize medals are 18-karat [green gold] with a 24-karat gold plating. [7] Tells you something about the relative importance, doesn't it? (Yes, I'm an egghead, why? :-) Femto 14:37, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

• Wow that's sad. There really isn't much of a difference between a gold and silver metal other than a name and some more publicity. And maybe more sweat :).

And Hugh Loebner, sponser of the Loebner prize has something to say about that on his website. Carbonate 14:10, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

All languages?

Is it really necessary to have all the various local names for gold in the History section? I do believe it to be redundant (via interwiki links) and that it doesn't add anything to the article. dewet|™ 17:12, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Gold across the counter

can you buy gold across the counter in Britian? i have heard that obtaining physical gold is relatively easy in european countries like germany and switzerland but i thought that it was illegal on mainland britain and to get solid gold from a bank you had to go to the channel islands or the isle of man. Mybe i am just nuts anyway a clear answer would be appreciated

There were, in the past, restrictions on private ownership of gold in both the UK and US. These disappeared in the 70's, AFAICT. The World Gold Council has links on their website to businesses that buy and sell gold; the banks apparently don't do so in the UK, but there are a number of brokerages that do. --Robert Merkel 01:19, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I know in Canada you can buy gold in coin stores, but it is much above market value(because they are coins). Not sure about buying at market prices. HighInBC 15:33, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

International Monetary Fund

The article states that gold is the basis of the International Monetary Fund's monetary standard. I think this is not true. At one point, the Bretton Woods agreement fixed the price of gold in dollars as a monetary policy. Now however, this gold standard has been replaced by Special Drawing Rights which are based on a basket of currencies (which basket is reviewed on a regular schedule to ensure that it represents the relative importance of world currencies).

At the same time, the IMF /does/ own a fairly large store of gold.

Noble metal

Would somebody please remove the part that says 'Gold is a noble metal' because its not--Gold /will/ interact with other elements. --71.145.151.179 00:50, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

But absolute un-reactivity isn't a required property of noble metals. Femto 12:17, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

• Actually, if you think about it, gold is not one of the noble gases. 1: Gold is a metal not a gas. 2: Noble gases have exactly 8 electrons in their outer orbit, rendering them perfectly inert. Gold, on the other hand, is missing electrons, so that it will interact with other substances such as floride, which corrodes and ruins gold. 71.145.208.158 21:34, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Note the difference between a noble metal and a noble gas. GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 19:52, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, take for example Xenon the noble gas. While it is termed as such and is still considered to be a noble gas, it has been made to react with fluorine, forming the solid compound XeF4, that is Xenon tetra fluoride(8th ed General Chemisty, Chang Raymond). Nobility of gas or metal does not require absolute unreactivity as mentioned earlier in this section. --Morgan 05:04, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Gold tarnish?

Anyone know if gold can't tarnish, or is "tarnish resistant" like platinum? Can't find anything in the article --Fxer 22:51, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

"Because of its high electrical conductivity and resistance to corrosion and other desirable combinations of physical and chemical properties, gold also emerged in the late 20th century as an essential industrial metal." --From the article, emphasis mine. TimL 02:22, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

• No, gold doesn't tarnish. 71.145.208.158 21:30, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

It may tarnish in the presence of an acid. But not in normal enviroment. I have seen gold coins being taken from a 300 year old shipwreck shining from the mud. HighInBC 15:34, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Tarnish is, as I understand it, a relatively resistant coating of a salt of the metal. For example, silver reacts with sulfur to give a tarnish of silver sulfide, that doesn't dissolve in water. Gold doesn't have such salts, as far as I know; solutions that attack it also dissolve it. Correct me if I'm wrong. It's another case if gold is mixed with other metals. --Vuo 20:44, 22 July 2006 (UTC)