Talk:False or misleading statements by Donald Trump

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Media reluctance to use the word "lie"[edit]

It seems as if this article should have more coverage of the media's years-long reluctance to refer to Trump's falsehoods as "lies", and how they eventually started conceding that he's a liar. The fact that they were so reluctant to refer to the lies as lies started getting considerable attention, as did their decision to finally admit the reality. — Red XIV (talk) 06:34, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wouldn't a lie indicate an intentional act of deception? It's possible he believes what he says and is just ignorant. Caseofbaskets (talk) 16:46, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I believe the watershed moment was the January 6 United States Capitol attack, where the whole world saw the danger of not treating the big lie as a deliberate falsehood. Don't have a source in hand at the moment to verify that though. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 17:15, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Less character analysis, more verified instances of falsehoods and obviously misleading claims[edit]

This article contains numerous opinion-based character judgments which are not fitting for an encyclopedic entry on such a specific topic. If such information is truly necessary, it should be moved to a section reserved for that purpose, leaving only instances of substantiated lies and mendacity in the existing sections. 152.117.79.55 (talk) 17:40, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's difficult to respond to a general grievance. Please detail some of the specific passages that you find problematic. 331dot (talk) 18:28, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Opinions and character analyses are just as legitimate content as straight facts. Just as we are not supposed to isolate criticism into its own section, we should not isolate opinions and analyses into one section. It's best to mix content and place things where they logically fit together. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 20:06, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I note that this issue is mostly resolved and offer the following suggestions. Paragraph 5, under "Use of repetition" (beginning with "The Washington Post "), alludes to the Post's "14 statements" that were disinformation. These are notably missing.
Generally speaking, the character analyses mentioned by the anonymous user above add little to the discussion. The only actual comparison between Trump and other presidents is a 2017 NYT article by Sheryl Stolberg, which, after mentioning some other lies by past presidents, concludes that Trump had taken lying to "an entirely new level" and "Trump is trafficking in hyperbole, distortion and fabrication on practically a daily basis." Nowhere is an unopinionated, and substantiated, comparison of Trump to other presidents. I would agree with the assessment that such conclusions, especially when their premises are omitted, are not appropriate for this entry.
Additionally, most of said character analyses have a strong Left bias, giving this article as a whole a Left skew. It'd be nice to see some more objective statements on Trump's veracity, and additional evidence/opinions from sources with a Right bias. LetsAddSomeContext (talk) 21:05, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You will need to explain how this is a left bias. As is well documented, he spreads disinformation on a constant basis. O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:33, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are you able to explain how this article does not contain a left-bias? The previous poster made a lot of solid points that you disregarded, then basically responded saying “prove it”.
Here’s proof of left-bias:
Adolf Hitler’s page isn’t nearly as damning or colorful as Donald Trump’s. Why?
All of the Donald Trump articles are written as if they were authored by a CNN journalist. There’s no place for that in an encyclopedic entry. Vklemenz (talk) 23:25, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Adolf Hitler’s page isn’t nearly as damning or colorful as Donald Trump’s.
Lol. Lmao, even. — Czello (music) 23:28, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bigly huge[edit]

This page has 15,225 words and so almost certainly should be divided or trimmed. Although its size accurately reflects the veracity and volume of Mr. Trump's verbiage, can anything sensibly be done? Certes (talk) 22:31, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bone Spurs[edit]

I see nothing about his statements about his bone spurs (osteophytes). Were those statements true? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.200.50.178 (talk • contribs)

As medical records are confidential, we may never actually know the answer to that one. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 21:03, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
From what I could gather before the paywall got me, the New York Times did do some reporting on this, it seems the diagnosis came from a podiatrist that rented space from Trump's father. [1] Looks like Nikki Haley's campaign also had something to say about it: [2]. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 21:08, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Opening lines[edit]

Thread retitled from "Opening lines accusing Trump of “tens of thousands” of “false or misleading claims” is incorrect". WP:TALKHEADPOV

The Washington Post article was subjective, opinion based and should not be used in any respected publications. The articles on Wikipedia regarding Donald Trump are deeply concerning, as we continue to allow biased opinion to be presented as fact. Even Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer’s pages are far more objective and rooted in fact. When did Wikipedia stop caring about objective truth?

Please consider this with future posts, as this is a slippery slope to propaganda, defamation and dehumanization…these are the ingredients to oppression, war and genocide.

I beg that we return to a respected, non-political Wikipedia that’s interests are rooted in facts. Lay the facts out without bias, and let the people think for themselves. After all, this is Wikipedia, not CNN or Fox News. Political fervor and bias is a disservice to your readers. Vklemenz (talk) 22:03, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You forgot to say you will stop donating. O3000, Ret. (talk) 22:13, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I will not stop donating, and I will not withhold an opinion I feel is important. I am a person who stated over and over again that I was personally offended that Donald Trump was elected president, but that doesn’t negate the world’s need for an unbiased and objective source of crucial information.
Your response is actually a great example of the tactic of ridiculing people in order to discredit them, which eventually escalates to the issues aforementioned in my initial post.
If you have any actual thoughts on the matter, I’d love to dialogue. Vklemenz (talk) 23:13, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Don't stop with the first sentence or only one RS. Read the whole article and double check to see if any sources have been misused. Then come back and tell us what you have found, and be very specific (exact quotes and the sources). This article has been created by editors of all persuasions, and we try to correctly describe what RS say. If you think you can do better, give it a try. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 00:07, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The text is well documented and the actual disinformation has been point by point documented by respected sources. You have not presented any sources to discount this. Seriously, we don't use common sense here. But if we did, listen to what he says every day. A small percentage of what he says is true. So it's not a surprise that a well respected source that documented the situation comes to the conclusion that he has made a vast number of false statements. If you wish to make an argument that we are willing to entertain, you need to use reliable sources and avoid bringing up Hitler, as tempting as that may be. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:08, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
... and the small percentage of what he says that is true is pretty scary and dystopian. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 00:09, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That might be true. Yet, that opinion belongs in a blog and not on Wikipedia. I recommend everyone reads this essay and internalizes it.
[Wikipedia:We shouldn't be able to figure out your opinions]] Vklemenz (talk) 14:04, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why isn't there another article pertaining to the lies of other politicians? What is so special about Donald Trump? He isn't the first politican to lie all the time, that's for sure. 71.67.133.93 (talk) 08:19, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is because reliable sources have written about his numerous false statements as a distinct topic, not just documenting them, but writing about the fact that he brings false statements to a new level, among other aspects. If you can offer independent reliable sources that write about the false statements of other politicians as a distinct topic, go ahead and write that article. Personally I haven't seen enough coverage to sustain, say an article titled "False or misleading statements by Joe Biden" or HRC or whomever politician you dislike. 331dot (talk) 08:31, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
From the lead: Commentators and fact-checkers have described the scale of Trump's mendacity as "unprecedented" in American politics. That's why this article exists. — Czello (music) 08:43, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Vklemenz:, whereas all people lie at some times in their lives, and all politicians lie occasionally, that is a bug, not a feature, of their modus operandi. Not so with Trump. It is his main mo. He is not alone in using lies a lot, but he is far worse than any other American politician or president. RS and fact-checkers find there is no comparison, no one else even close, hence this article. For him, lying is like breathing, a feature, not a bug. Telling the truth is the exception for him. He literally, no hyperbole, cannot utter five sentences, without there being some form of lie, deception, or distortion of the facts. He has those who emulate him, politicians like George Santos and Vivek Ramaswamy. Before Trump made lying so acceptable to such a large number of people, they would not have survived in politics for five minutes. Trump has made it politically correct to constantly lie, at least his followers feel that way. They don't care.
Lying is the basis of his political career and how he maintains control of his base. They only believe him. That's why his MAGA followers believe so many lies and false conspiracy theories. (See List of conspiracy theories promoted by Donald Trump.) They believe them because Trump creates and pushes them, and he has caused them to distrust all media (RS) that exposes them. They live in a bubble. They don't trust fact-checkers either. In fact, many of them are so isolated from the facts that they are ignorant of many of his controversies. They haven't even heard of them. When one tells them, one gets a blank look on their face. It's really stunning to watch.
His Big Lie of a stolen election is the most dominating lie for most of his followers, and it's wreaking havoc on America and the GOP. If you are inclined to believe there was significant election fraud, and that the election was stolen from Trump (Election denial movement in the United States), then you should ask yourself why Fox News, the main purveyor of Trump's lies, and election lies, paid $787.5 million to Dominion Voting Systems. I dare you to read Dominion Voting Systems v. Fox News Network#Discovery. They knew they were lying, yet continued to lie to their viewers. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 14:47, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are simply venting your frustrations with Trump to me.
I am not inclined to believe the election was stolen. Please note my comment " I am a person who stated over and over again that I was personally offended that Donald Trump was elected president, but that doesn’t negate the world’s need for an unbiased and objective source of crucial information" before writing me off as a Trump supporter, which, on this thread, makes you an enemy. I think the guy is a pig, but voicing that opinion out loud is divisive and counterintuitive.
This is the entire problem. Objective and unbiased reported does not equal support. Wanting to see an objective and unbiased factual article on Trump does not equate to me supporting Trump.
Biased reporting to fulfill your political ideologies is not credible, and people know that. Unbiased reporting gives people a feeling that they're being presented with FACT, not opinion, and gives them the information needed to form their own opinion. People who are unsure of what to think about Trump read articles like this one and disregard it because it's so obviously biased against him. Vklemenz (talk) 15:16, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your argument is with the RS that document these things. Our job is to document what they say, and your personalization of this matter by accusing editors of including their own biases is a personal attack. Stop it. Comment on content, not editors. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 15:34, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Vklemenz. I personally despise Donald Trump, and have no reason to back him up in any way.
Reliable sources that come from media doesn't seem reliable to me Someone just pointed out that FOX News has been deemed non trust worthy since they "supported Trump", yet are you 100% sure other media outlets aren't supporting the other side? It just astounds me that there are so much evidence against Trump and not the hundreds of thousands of politicians who have lied and spread misinformation in their career. 71.67.133.93 (talk) 15:40, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Someone just pointed out that FOX News has been deemed non trust worthy since they "supported Trump" Someone where? This is nonsense. Discussion about Fox (and numerous other sources of all types) have been underway since this project began. Of course paying $787.5 million for knowingly spreading lies was a part of that determination. As has already been said in this section, politicians lie, But Trump has taken this to a new level. O3000, Ret. (talk) 15:49, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I will work on this!
I stand by my point on Hitler, unless you can explain why his page doesn’t seem to have so much emotion and opinion thrown in compared to Trump. Again, I know it’s easy to try to discredit someone by making jokes, but please at least try to directly respond to the points made instead of trying out your stand-up. Vklemenz (talk) 14:00, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I did respond, and if you can find any emotion in this article, please point it out. O3000, Ret. (talk) 14:23, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You have not responded to any of the points made. You have just deflected. By the way, this article actually does compare Trump to Hitler, so I'm going to roll with it.
Here's this pointed opinion that somehow made its way into an article about a list of false statements by Trump:
"Their effort was characterized by some as an implementation of Hitler's "big lie" propaganda technique." Vklemenz (talk) 15:20, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your "points" (WP allows biased opinion, articles not rooted in facts, WP has stopped caring about objective truth, this is political fervor and bias, followed by ingredients to oppression, war and genocide) are not points at all. They are broad accusations and assumptions of bad faith. You have not shown any actual lack of WP:NPOV or failure to use WP:RS in fact anything in the article that backs up your contentious claims. So what's there to respond to? As to the point you just mentioned about the big lie, it is not our opinion; it has seven sources. O3000, Ret. (talk) 15:34, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, here's a point: why is most of the sources in this article from media outlets like The New York Times, CNN, etc.? I don't see a single from FOX News, who someone in this thread pointed out that they support Trump. Shouldn't there be both sides in a Wikipedia article? Why do you only include the media outlets who are against Trump? 71.67.133.93 (talk) 15:47, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are 471 citations in this article. You are incorrect. I already responded to your comment on Fox higher up. O3000, Ret. (talk) 15:53, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see, again, that most of them come from media outlets that vehemently oppose Trump. If one side has supposedly supported Trump and is not included, why should the other side be deemed as reliable?
> Fox News, the main purveyor of Trump's lies, and election lies, paid $787.5 million to Dominion Voting Systems.
Above is in response to what you said about FOX. This is who I was talking about. There also must be scandals from the other media outlets as well.
Also, in respond to Valjean, I'm not personally attacking anyone, nor is the OP of this section. I just believe that both sides should be taken and an article that almost only has citations from the opposing side doesn't seem like good faith. 71.67.133.93 (talk) 16:20, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Scandals by others are in other articles. Fox was declared unreliable for politics after years of lengthy discussions. If you want to argue for its inclusion, this is the wrong place. WP:RSPS or WP:RSN. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:25, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It just seems to me that you are deflecting the questions I brought up. I do believe FOX News is uncredible, but just because of that there is an argument to be made that if a media outlet supporting one side is not trustworthy, why should the other side be deemed trustworthy? It does not make sense to me. 71.67.133.93 (talk) 16:42, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am not deflecting at all. Wikipedia is built using reliable sources. Sources are deemed reliable, unreliable, or partially reliable based on their history of integrity, acknowledging errors, reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, etc. and is not related to their positions. The history of any other source is irrelevant to the source. The lengthy parameters are outlined at WP:RS. No source has ever been considered unreliable because it does or does not support Trump. Among the 471 citations, there are many sources that have supported or been neutral on Trump. O3000, Ret. (talk) 17:15, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We do not create content here by engaging in bothsidism, aka "false balance". Unreliable sources have no WP:Due weight here, so we don't use them. We only use reliable sources. Go to WP:RSPS or WP:RSN if you want to question the reliability of a source. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:18, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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