Talk:Canadian Ukrainian

Dialect

Nice work, but references are definitely needed. —Michael Z. 2006-01-5 14:54 Z

Thanks, this is just to get the ball rolling. I hope that others with a keener knowledge of lingusitics will help flesh the article out, and I also hope to find references for things I know but don't have citations for. -Kevlar67 19:51, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm okay with changing the family classification from "Ukrainian Dialects" to "Ukrainian Language" or just "Ukrainian". I worded that way because I wanted to convey the idea that Canadian Ukrainian evolved out of specific dialects of Ukrainian. I'm also okay with calling it a "dialect" rather that "variation", however I choose "variation" because I don't know weather trained linguists consider it a "dialect" or not. Anyone have anything to say about this? -Kevlar67 22:12, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Good questions. I doubt if it is technically a dialect; it's a mixture of two languages (see also superstratum and substratum). It's one of many hundreds, but happens to be one with some definable characteristics, in a particular geographic range, so (probably) it deserves an article. But for all we know, linguists may consider it part of a North American Ukrainian speak. These are all reasons to find some references, even popular ones from magazines to start—so we can start to define the subject of this article in better terms than just our own personal anecdote. —Michael Z. 2006-01-5 22:51 Z

I too do not know such data about that canadian ukrainian (канадська українська мова) is a separate "dialect". Probably this original studies of User:Irpen. Can he give reference? --Yakudza 23:27, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Yakudza, calm down please, will you? Before crying wolffe, at least do some googling or simply ask in a more respectful form if you have no desire/time/opportunity. Did you say earlier "Помаешь приятель, если ведешь себя как..."?

OK, to the question:

• Ярослав-Богдан РУДНИЦЬКИЙ «Фонологічні нововведення в канадському діалекті української мови» (1961). Published in Canada.

--Irpen 00:00, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Сongratulate. You now two (you and Rudnicikiy) --Yakudza 00:40, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

See for instance this:

About the Author:

Ivan L. Rudnytsky (1919–84) was professor of History at the University of Alberta and Associate Director of the Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies. He is coeditor (with John-Paul Himka) of Rethinking Ukrainian History and author of Modern Ukrainian History and many essays and articles.

But seriously, Yakudza, learn some manners. If it's just the language problem, speak in Ukrainian. I offered help in translation many times. That was before you turned really uncivil though. --Irpen 01:18, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Якщо справа в тоні то перепрошую. Проте, на мою думку, однієї роботи, що вважає кандську українську мову діалектом на десятки інших, що так не вважають може бути цілком достатньо для фрази "perhaps a dialect" (хоч може й не в першому рядку статті), проте замало для того, щоб це було внесено у таблицю або у перелік діалектів укр.мови. --Yakudza 13:21, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Y, I have no doubt there is a Canadian Ukrainian language; I've spoken one type of Canadian Ukrainian all my life and have met the people who speak another, older version. My only question was whether linguists classify it a dialect, pidgin, creole, sociolect, or something else. —Michael Z. 2006-01-6 03:21 Z

There is often no firm opinion on separate dialect or even language

As far as I know, and I checked that in several places, there are no clear and universally agreed criteria to tell even the dialect from the language (Rusyn is an example), and even less so to tell the local speak from the dialect. As for being separate languages, mutual intelligibility is usually cited as the prime factor but, again, this isn't math and nothing is absolutely certain. The definitions people give a circumstantial and contradictory. Perhaps the reason is that the issue is often politically charged.

I suggest we don't bring politics in this particular case and give our patriotisms a break, because, thanks god, there is no political issue in this case. I could kind of see why people, depending on their views, may refuse to see (or insist on) a separate identity (or lack of it) for the Rusyn or Moldavian language. In this one, however, there is no politics as there are no ways for territories of Alberta to become parts (or separate from) Ukraine, politically.

I deliberately wrote "perhaps a dialect" to leave the ambiguity to be decided elsewhere. Then comes Yakudza and calls it "original research". I am flattered but that shot missed. He will have to stalk me elsewhere to find some other vulnerabilities, which isn't hard, btw. --Irpen 03:41, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Technical

So how come I can't restore the colour to the side panel? It indicates which language family the lanuage / dialect / etc. comes from, and never should have been removed. And why can't I see the "regions" line in that panel?

PS, I don't really care wheather we go with "dialect" or not as long as it based on the opinion of linguists. Kevlar67 09:16, 6 January 2006 (UTC)-

Ukrainian language teacher imported from Canada

Canadian Ukrainian did influence standard Ukrainian during to immediate post-independence period, when Ukraine had a shortage of Ukrainian language teachers because the promotion of Russian during the Soviet period, and imported some from Canada.

This sounds like an April joke to me. ;) Is there any source confirming it?--AndriyK 09:53, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I couldn't find anything specific in my few history books, but it's not an unreasonable possibility. Narodni shkoly were pretty well developed in western Canada by the First World War, and during the period of Ukrayinizatsiya there were other examples of exchange between Ukraine and Canada, including by the Ukrainian socialists in Canada, and Canadian Ukrainian assistance in establishing the UAOC.

Whether the Canadian Ukrainian language had any significant influence through such an exchange is a separate question. Most of the Ukrainian Canadians had originally immigrated from Austrian Galicia, so there could have been some indirect Galician influence in this way.

Personally, I would leave the {{fact}} template, but remove the {{dubious}}, since someone thought this is the case, but we so far have no hard evidence for or against the idea. —Michael Z. 2006-01-23 16:17 Z

We do not have neither hard no soft evidence for the idea. We simply have no evidence for it. And this is the most strong evidence against it. And {{dubious}} is the quite appropriate, it is even more than dubious. (BTW, you speeak about Ukrainization time, but the dubious statement concerns post-USSR period).

The statement about the influence of Can. Ukr. on Standard Ukrainian is also extremenly dubious. Therefore, I'll mark it so.--AndriyK 18:18, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Whoah, oops. I thought it was talking about post-Russian revolution, pre- and early-Soviet period. Sorry—I was way off base.

Common sense would indicate that the international use of English would overwhelm any minor Canadian influence of this presumed import of teachers (although common sense is often wrong). I'm happy to remove the sentence or leave it commented out, barring any evidence to the contrary. —Michael Z. 2006-01-23 18:32 Z

I never meant to imply that there was a massive importation of teachers from Canada, or that this was a major force in the development of Standard Ukrainian. It is merely a claim and I have heard, and something I though would help illustrate to the reader that during the Soviet period the strength of Ukrainian in Canada was an important counter to the decline in the USSR. This is no longer the case as Canadian Ukrainian is in decline and independent Ukraine has a more robust policy defending Ukrainian. If this isn’t good enough, I am okay with line being removed or rewritten. Kevlar67 10:42, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I am going to withdraw this claim for the time being until I can find some evidence (if I ever do). Kevlar67 09:52, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Just to make sure, I was only questioning the fact of teachers' importation. A more broader statement that the influence increased when, with the fall of the USSR, Ukraine became open and even eager to embrace the diaspora is valid. With the general condition of Ukrainian national scholarship in arts and humanities within Ukraine being in a rather disastrous condition due to the Soviet ideologization and, OTOH, its former being closed to the scholars from diaspora, the influx of the diaspora influence in all areas of humanities, including the language, is undoubtful. We just have to find the referenced info on that.

As for the importation of teachers, this claim isn't credible IMO. In any year of the Soivet times many Ukrainian universities and pedagogical institutes produced a large number of certified teachers of Ukrainian. Whether they all were really fully qualified is a separate issue because the subject was considered often "of secondary importance", which is a shame of course, and the average qualification of the teachers of Ukrainian was perhaps lower than in math and science or even Russian for that matter.

But the fact remains that in every school in Ukraine kids were taught Ukrainian, at least formally, and even in Russian schools the number of hours asigned to the Ukrainian, per curriculum, was only slightly smaller than to Russian. --Irpen 20:17, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your polite and constructive feedback. What you have said makes a lot of sense. I think some WP article should convey something about the influence of the diaspora on post-Soivet Ukraine, and this could be it, since the article Ukrainian diaspora is just a shell. I agree now that the claim about the teachers probably isn't true. Kevlar67 22:02, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Examples of Canadian Ukrainian words

Okay, I'm going to need a lot of help with this part. I want to creat a table that will show examples of Canadian Ukrainian words. It needs several columns. 1) the C-U word in Cyrillic. 2)same word tranliterated into latin. 3)where it is derived from. 4)an English translation. 5) the equivilent word in standard Ukrainian in Cyrillic. 6)standard term in latin.

This will look a lot like the table at Haitian_creole#Pronouns.

Now off the top of my head I can only think of two terms that I have enough information for. I have a bunch of other English loan-words from the Dictionary at the Ukrainian Cultural Heritage Village website http://collections.ic.gc.ca/ukrainian/ (e.g. ais reem for ice cream) but I don't know the Standard terms for them and I only have them in latin. If any one that could help out in this area it would be great. I also need help creating the table.

The first two terms I that believe should go in the table are: Pyrohy (from Polish [right?]) means perogies or dumplings, in Ukraine it's verenyky. Faino (from German), means "good", in Ukraine it's dóbre. Does everyone agree with this? Kevlar67 21:33, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

We use Dobre here (in Canada) for good... Faino (Polish word) is also common in both Canada and Western Ukraine, so it's also not specific to here, think of it more as a synonym since dobre as I said is used. Also Verenyky and Pyrohy are 2 different things. Both are used, Verenyky being the boiled kind and Pyrohy being the fried type. I know for sure verenyky comes from the Ukrainian verb to boil varyty, not completely sure about pyrohy though. It could be of Ukrainian origin as well. Some words are common between many languages (for instance voda)

--207.47.136.32 06:06, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I do know that "dobre" is also used in Canada (even more than "faino"), and in Western Ukraine. And yes "faino" is used in W. UA too, since most of Canadian Ukrainian is based on Western Ukrainian dialects it follows that that is where the immigrants brought the word from, although I'm pretty sure it's German not Polish. The point is, though, that "faino" is used in Canada but NOT in "standard" Ukrainians (i.e. the textbook form of the language based on the Kiev and area dialects) or so I've been lead to believe. As far as "pyrohy" is conserned I know that "verenyky" is used NOW is Canada but was not in the 1920s, implying it was imported later from Soviet Ukraine, not from the Polish-controlled area. It's my understanding that in Central UA "varenyky" is the only term for boiled dumplings for dinner, "pyrizhky" are the baked ones (what we call "potato buns" in English in my family), and "pyrohy" are a dessert. While in W. UA and most (Western) Canadian families "pyrohy" are for dinner. Are their any fluent and well travelled Ukrainophones that can help us out? Kevlar67 10:27, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

The glossary at the collections.ic.gc.ca site seems to contain mostly 1) plain Ukrainian words transliterated into the Latin alphabet (e.g. Akafíst and akátsiia) and 2) plain English words, transcribed as if spoken with a heavy Ukrainian accent (ais krim, not ais reem, and anyvérseri)—neither of which is really the same thing as a word characteristic of the Canadian Ukrainian speech. Couldn't a few interesting examples merely be described in a paragraph, perhaps including some of the Galician terminology more common in Canada than in modern Ukraine (e.g. faino, kramnytsya, sklep)?

I'm concerned that a table like this will become a collection of everybody's baba & dido's colourful words, without an indication of their significance or any verifiable attestation.

And what is a "democrat wagon"? —Michael Z. 2006-03-24 22:00 Z

Naturally the basis of most Candian Ukrainian vocabulary is 1)standard Ukrainian words 2)local Galician/Buk. words 3)foreign (European) loanwards (eg.Polish, German) 4)"Ukrainianised" English words. For example my grandfather was telling he knew the Ukrainian words for a "stook" (pile of wheat sheaves) and the verb "to stook", but once the learned the English for it he simply "Ukrainianised" it and that is what he called it all the time in both languages.

If we switch it to a paragraph it should desicribe all these words sources and their realtive importance. And yes I see what your saying about everyone adding on Baba's favourite saying. That's why I wanted it to come from the glossary (the best source I could think of), and I only wanted words that were different from those used in modern standard Ukrainian.

Democract was brand name or syle of wagon that was had springs and shocks, and was for passangers only (not farm duties). Sort of like a poor man's carriage. I was supprised WP doesn't have an article on it. But wikitionary does. Kevlar67 00:01, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Guys, "Faino" is not specifically Canadian Ukrainian. It is used in Ukraine as well, although predominantly in the West of the country. --Irpen 01:56, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, to say. Perogies are different than vareneky. Perogies are baked or roasted (Печаньі) while Vareneke are boiled (Вареньі). Subtle yet very important difference. Oh, and I added a saying I got from my PLAST camp. The lyx thing. It is actually used very much in Ukrainian Scouting circles. 216.99.50.54 23:23, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Linguistic purism in Canadian Ukrainian

For Canadian Ukrainian a greater purism, when word having english origin was changed ukrainian. At soviet time in ukrainian language of these word have changed on foreign. All "pure" word were in ukrainian in 1920-30. Presently under influence of the literature ukrainian diaspora they partly return in ukrainian language.

• футбол — копанка (копаний м ’яч )
• волейбол — відбиванка
• баскетбол — кошівка
• басейн (річки) — сточище
• слайд — прозірка
• фотографія — світлина
• аеродром - летовище
• фізкультура — руханка
• лижний спорт — лещетарство
• журнал — часопис
• телефонна трубка — слухавка
• тираж - наклад
• процент - відсоток

and more

Also literary Canadian Ukrainian uses orthography 1929 (Харківський правопис, Kharkiv orthography), which was in 1933 is cancelled. Presently in Ukraine gradually return to him. Also earlier Letter Ґ was returned in ukrainian language partly therefore that she was preserved in Canadian (and American) Ukrainian. --Yakudza 21:25, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Yakudza, I wonder where you get your info from. I read Ukrainian publication regularly and I don't see neither the "gradual" nor an abrupt return to Kharkiv Orthography. The authors of Ukrayinska Pravda or Ukrainian Wikipedia all use the contemporary literary language.

This "purization" was indeed attempted in science, I remember, and its main goal was for certain connected scholars in the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences to get state money for such "crucial" study. They came up with a very important proposal which changing such terms in scientific usage as:

• ефір -> етер
• циліндр -> валок
• Рентген -> Пулюй (not that I want to ridicule Ivan Pulyui in any way, but the proposal was still stupid)

I think this movement of Ukrainization of scientific terminology lost traction once the hype was over and money was used up. At least I haven't heard about such proposals for a while. --Irpen 03:26, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Irpen, I advise You to read else anything except "Ukrayins'ka Pravda" in interval between writing foolish commentary on Wikipedia. I suppose that Your outlook from this powerfully enlarges. Such journals as "Suchasnist", "Ї", "Krytyka", "Knyzhnyk-Review", "Chetver" publishers "Smoloskyp", "Kalvariya", "Litopys" as well as many modern writers and historians (Oksana Zabuzhko, Yuriy Andrukhovych, Serhiy Zhadan and more) use the project of the new orthography, which close to Kharkiv Orthography. Some authors "Ukrayins'ka Pravda" also its use. Notice, I do not give the estimations this and my opinions, but only fix the fact. --Yakudza 10:11, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Yakudza, thanks for cleverly exposing my foolishness. It's good to have bright guys around like yourself, who balance me and other fools with they witty and civil comments based on broad knowledge of the subject, good natured desire to educate their colleagues and notoriously balanced views. I am ashamed that I indeed don't read so many publications on the regular basis (trust me purely due to a lack of time, not lack of interest), but I do read much of what comes from Ukraine, whether it comes in Ukrainian, Russian or English. So, I exercised my best judgement.

I used Ukrayiniska Pravda as just one example. I watched discussion at uk-wiki on the issue too. Its articles that are written by the contributors (not pasted from outside sources) are written in a standard Ukrainian, rather than in Kharkiv orthography. Also, note that when Andrukhovych writes for a wide audience, he certainly uses standard Ukrainian. Here is the full archive of the vast number of essays he wrote for Mirror Weekly as an example. So, while your comments are no doubt clever, your facts are wrong. --Irpen 22:51, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

You have insulted ukrainian science and Ukrainian Academy of Sciences, but took offence on my remark?

The Fact that part of newspapers and journal in Ukraine uses one spelling but a part (smaller) other (the project of the new orthography). If you have other data, bring them. --Yakudza 23:50, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

In what way did I insult the the Ukrainian science or an academy? That some members of an academy use their connections to get access to funds is nothing uncommon in all academies. As for my taking offense in your remark, you are wrong again. To the contrary, I appreciated your remark and thanked you for it. But this is off-topic. I don't challenge that some use an alternative orthography. I challenged your statement that there is an ongoing gradual return to it in Ukraine. As media became less centralized and not controlled by any central authority, everyone is free to write as they please. Where is the "return to orthography" here? --Irpen 23:58, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Example Poem

How about this for an example poem? It's from 1925 and was published in Winnipeg in the introduction to a basic Ukrainian language reader. A good patriotic poem about the Canadian Red Ensign.:

Наш прапор.

Наш прапор має три кольори: Цервоний, білий і синий.

Цервоний ознацає: ,,Будь відважний`` Вілий ознацає: ,,Будь цесний`` Синий ознацає: ,,Будь вірний``

Памятаймо о тім, коли дивимосаь на Наш прапор.

Please check it for typos, etc. Does anythingone think it would be a useful addition to the article or not?

Could anyone transliterate it (Nash prapor..., etc.) How about a translation (Our flag... etc.)? Kevlar67 07:34, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

That should say Білий instead of Вілий. -Iopq 10:43, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Nash prapor.

Nash prapor maie try koliory: Tservonyi (should be Chervonyi), bilyi i synyi.

Tservonyi (should be Chervonyi) oznatsaie (should be oznachaie): "Bud' vidvazhnyi"
Vilyi (should be Bilyi) oznatsaie (should be oznachaie): "Bud' tsesnyi (should be chesnyi)"
Synyi oznatsaie (should be oznachaie): "Bud' virnyi"

Pamyataimo o tim, koly dyvymosia na nash prapor. --tufkaa 15:34, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Our Flag

Our flag has three colors: Red, white and blue.

Red stands for: "Be Brave"
White stands for: "Be Honest"
Blue stands for: "Be Faithful"

This we remember, when we view our flag. --tufkaa 03:49, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Examples of Canadian Ukrainian words

This section seems quite mixed up. Dymokrat is very dated at best; Canadians haven't got around by horse wagon since before WWII—if it was used during a certain period, the table should indicate this fact. Ais reem and luyx must be typos meaning ais kreem (not a special word, just a rendering of the accent) and lyux (was this version of French de luxe never used in Ukraine?). This section is based on a sloppy source, and we should reconsider including it unless we find a better reference. —Michael Z. 2006-09-05 12:23 Z

Yeah, now there are more additions, still with no references. It's mixing up standard dialectal Ukrainian from Galicia, with ridiculous English misspellings. I find it embarrassing, and am removing it as unreferenced. —Michael Z. 2008-05-20 08:35 z

Added examples should also be explained? Are they borrowings from English or French, Dialect from Ukraine which has survived abroad, or what? This should contribute to some understanding of Ukrainian Canadian language and its different registers, not just be a grab-bag of folksy words. —Michael Z. 2008-05-20 08:39 z

Move to Canadian Ukrainian (language)

It just seems a little clearer to me, when there's another article Ukrainian Canadian about the people. Thoughts? - TheMightyQuill 00:44, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, first it would be like English language and French language without brackets. Second, it's not a language but a dialect or even a chronolect, so no, I disagree. Kevlar67 20:58, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

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IPA is wrong

I don't know enough Ukrainian to correct the IPA, but I can see that it's wrong with respect to the value of [y]. Can a speaker fix this up? Jogloran (talk) 02:40, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Status of fourth wave immigrants

Ukrainians have moved to Canada since the third wave, and this can be called a fourth wave. But do new immigrants really speak Canadian Ukrainian at home, different from what is spoken in Ukraine itself? It seems to me that the point of this article is that older Ukrainian speakers in Canada have been away from Ukraine long enough (and they and their children have lived among non-Ukrainian Canadians long enough) that changes and separate developments in the language have taken place. Do recent immigrants from Ukraine adopt these changes so quickly? TooManyFingers (talk) 18:03, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

There is actually very little difference. There are minimal variations in grammar, and I can generate as many new words as I wish, incorporating anglicisms in a manner consistent with the Ukrainian language. I am proficient in both Ukrainian and English, and when communicated with in Canadian Ukrainian, I comprehended everything without the need for additional study of this dialect. – Mariâ Magdalina (talk) 02:57, 2 December 2023 (UTC)