Talk:CGR 1st Class 2-6-0 1876 BP

Intermediate CGR numbering system c. 1883-1888

An email by John Middleton concerning photographs displaying hitherto unexplained running numbers and the theory that the CGR used a second numbering system between 1884 and 1888 of which no documented details have yet been found, as well as some other misconceptions in existing published material, is reproduced here for the record.

From: John Nicholas Middleton
To: Kol Andre H Kritzinger
Cc: Bruno Martin ; The Lake's ; Leith Paxton
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:00 PM
Subject: CGR Comments - Moore Theory

Andre

I am back from Mongolia now, so some consolidated comments on all your wonderful hard work - I really admire your productivity its incredible !

If we consider the CGR up to say 1890 its complicated and we certainly havn't unravelled the whole story.

Part of the problem with the CGR numbering is that the earliest lists given by Holland are dated 1886 and may not necessarily be the original numbers, although at least some are. The evidence for an earlier numbering sequence has been around for many years in the form of several well known photographs but these are routinely dismissed. For example Dulez in the "150 Book" writes of Avonside 4-4-0 No. 75 simply by saying its an "Avonside Reference Number". It amazes me how certain people will find all manner of excuses to exclude data that doesn't fit their pre-conceived model !! One theory was put forward by Geoff Moore many years ago was of a common CGR series from 1 to 193 that ran until 1883. The problem with the Geoff Moore theory is that it was pure guesswork based on delivery order and made to fit the known photos that do not fit Holland's version. Moore may have been on the right track but we need more evidence before being able to compile a list. Another possibility put forward by Dave Littley was that these numbers were Crown Agents sequential numbers due to the confusion of similar locos in the W / M / E series. However, there is photographic evidence of these sequential numbers carried in service in South Africa (for example the photo of a 1st Class 2-6-0 with 39 cabside plate and 16 in large brass numerals on the boiler). So, for the time being this is still a "Work in Progress"

Thus, it seems best to go back to first principles and work from incontrovertible facts. This means setting aside both Holland's lists and the Moore theory.

The main available evidence is in Government publications.

G3'78 (1878) - Midland Stock
1/3 Shunting
5-10 6-coupled
11-13 4-coupled
17-24 6-coupled

This corresponds with Holland as far as types go, but whether 5-10 were the M5-M10 assigned by Holland is questionable. This assumes 1/3 were small HE/MW tanks and 2/4, 14-16 not listed but may be counted as construction stock (we know 14 was a Manning Wardle 0-4-0ST as there is a photo).

A2'80 (1880) Select Committee Report - Western Stock
7-32 Goods engines Corresponds with Holland for W7-32

G112'83 (1883) Railway Rates Commission Report
Lists loading tables for the majority of locos on all 3 systems

Western
3-6 Class 1 corresponds to W3-W6
7-42 Class 2 corresponds to W7-W42, both 2-6-0 and 4-4-0 but Holland shows them all as 1st Class
47-76 Class 3 corresponds to W47-76 but Holland shows them as 4th Class

Midland
11-13, 40-49 1st Class corresponds to M11-M13, 40-49
15-24 2nd Class corresponds to M15-24 but Holland has these as 1st Class
5/6/8/9, 25-39, 50-55 3rd Class corresponds to M5 etc but Holland has these as 2nd Class, except Holland has no number 33
7,10 4th Class possibly M7 /10 re-boilered, Holland has as 2nd Class

Eastern
1-4 Class A Shunting likely 0-4-0ST
5-7 Class B Light Goods likely RS 0-6-0ST
8-14 Class C Passenger likely 4-4-0 but Holland has no number E10
17-26 Class D Heavy Goods likely Hollands E17-20 plus the six other Avonsides (of which Holland fails to mention AE 1193/94)
27-32 Class E Heavy Goods likely Hollands E27-32
33-34 Class F Heavy Goods likely the two Fairlies (although Holland lists one as E7)

Note the differences with the classification in Holland, especially on the Midland and Eastern.

Of the existing sources, only Holland attempted to correlate CGR running numbers with builders works numbers and there is not very much supporting data for his version, I suspect for many blocks he simply assumed a direct continuous correlation. Unfortunately, surviving builders records are not very good, the well known ones are compilations and I am not at all sure that the CGR running numbers listed havn't been added at a later date by the compiler, for the Carter Kitson lists, this is almost certainly the case.

I think this might be an opportune time to do some basic research, for anyone who was the inclination.

Cape 1st Class 1876: You didn't include the known sales to the Transvaal Collieries, at least two locos, one at Great Eastern Colliery and one at the Cassel Coal Co (both near Springs) were in use by 1895. The boiler records show them as 1877 built which would make them from the Avonside batch (W17-24). Three of these were withdrawn between 1890-1896 (W21/22/24) so we can suggest that possibly two of these are the locos involved.

W7/9/13/14: were sold to Sudan in October 1884 - you havn't mentioned these

Nyasaland Railways : This is incorrect as written, even if the locos did go to Nyasaland which seems improbable, the name is wrong because the first railway in Nyasaland was the Shire Highlands Railway (SHR) on which construction started in 1904 and was opened in 1908. The second railway was the Central African Railway (CAR) on which construction started in 1913 (by Paulings). Nyasaland Railways was only formed in 1930 to amalgamate the SHR and CAR. The early locos are well known and documented and there is no reference at all to the CGR locos. I suspect that Holland may have seen "NR" in the records for "No Record".

The first two Kitsons of 1875 likely also delivered as a SECOND back-to-back loco, see attached drawing from Kitson archives. These two locos had a different wheel spacing to the others, clearly seen on the photo of 0416 as rebuilt as a saddle tank in Dulez (page 37)

So the back-to-back locos were the RS pair on the Eastern, the Kitson pair plus the two Fairlies.

Food for thought

Regards
John

Posted here for reference purposes. André Kritzinger (talk) 14:51, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

True identity of CSAR no. 303 Bloemfontein

Email correspondence between John Middleton and André Kritzinger in November 2013 is reproduced here for the record.

From: John Nicholas Middleton
To: Kol Andre H Kritzinger
Cc: Bruno Martin ; The Lake's ; Leith Paxton
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 12:10 AM
Subject: Kitson 2-6-0ST

Andre

Here's one to confuse you. This is one of the two Bloemfontein Works Shunters IMR 303 (ex OVGS 3) after an argument with the turntable pit in c1901-02. I have had this photo for a while and have always assumed it was one of the Kitson batch M17-24 but having studied this over the weekend I realise it has one of the earlier boilers with the dome set further back.

So there are two possibilities, it is one of M17-24 but re-fitted with an older boiler, or its a previously unknown saddle tank conversion of one of the earlier batches by either Beyer Peacock / Avonside.

I have a note that Dick Whittington claims it was Avonside 1178 (W24) but have no idea where he got that from.

Do we have any other evidence that any of the BP / AE locos were similarly rebuilt ?

Regards

John

From: "Kol Andre H Kritzinger"

To: "John Nicholas Middleton"

Date: 11/13/2013 12:28 PM

Subject: Re: Kitson 2-6-0ST

Hi John,

You got me!

The boiler says it's one of the BP/Avonside locos, but the smokebox is longer.

How certain is it that the location was Bloemfontein?

Regards,

André, Cape Town

From: John Nicholas Middleton
To: Kol Andre H Kritzinger
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: Kitson 2-6-0ST

Hi Andre

If you look at the 2-6-0ST rebuilds, they all seem to have the extended smokebox, note also the saddle tank is mostly welded (or perhaps one curved sheet) whereas the one on the photo of 0415 that you use is all rivetted.

Two of these locos were the Bloemfontein Works Shunters, OVGS 3 and 4 later IMR 303 and 304 then CSAR C and D. They were scrapped 1911-12 and replaced by two Hunslet 2-6-0ST from Table Bay Harbour which lasted until the 1930s. Given its IMR number, the date must be 1901 or 1902. So pretty certain its Bloemfontein, can't think whereas it may have been used with a turntable as they were never common. Although I have them as CSAR C and D, the register (noted below) also showed ZASM 4 as "C" and another ZASM (possibly 5) as "D". CSAR did re-use the letters but perhaps as departmental stock they only had these letters for a short time as they are then shown as named BLOEMFONTEIN and BLOEMFONTEIN WORKS.

This data came out of the CSAR Register I found in Pretoria in the early 1990s but the use of these is confirmed in Army records about Railways in the Boer War, in fact the source of this photo was the National Army Museum in Chelsea, London.

Regards

John

From: "Kol Andre H Kritzinger"

To: "John Nicholas Middleton"

Date: 11/14/2013 07:18 AM

Subject: Re: Kitson 2-6-0ST

Hi John,

Now waitaminnit... Sleeping over stuff helps at times.

Look at the tables of the BP-Avonsides and the Kitsons:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CGR_1st_Class_2-6-0_1876#Renumbering

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CGR_1st_Class_2-6-0ST_1876#Renumbering

On all these, I had three sources:

• Littley for builder, delivery years and original numbers.
• Holland for renumberings and disposal until 1912. (Ignore the Nyasaland entries that are still there...)
• The SAR classification and renumber list for the state of affairs on 1 Jan 1912. (The most useful little booklet I have!)

Now, Holland says the Kitsons were all rebuilt to saddle-tank shunters. He mentions no saddle-tank conversions on the BP-Avonsides.

And he identifies the saddle-tank for the OVGS as Kitson 2084, number M22, that's no longer shown in the CGR register by end of 1896.

Avonside 1176 was also no longer shown in the CGR register by end of 1896. Number W22.

I think what happened was that some of the BP-Avonsides were also rebuilt to saddle-tanks by the 1890s, having by then been replaced by later locomotives on the mainlines. And that it was W22 that went to the OVGS, not M22. That would explain the picture.

Typos happen. Making lists from old records also lead to mistakes. (Took me weeks to sort out the errors in my OWN list that I sat making from the 6E1-18E files one afternoon at Koedoespoort!)

About rivetting and welding: Wasn't welding a technique that was only developed in the WW2 era? Perhaps that saddle-tank was built without water-baffles, or with baffles only attached at the bottom of the tank?

Regards,

André, Cape Town

From: John Nicholas Middleton
To: Kol Andre H Kritzinger
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: Kitson 2-6-0ST

Hi Andre

Well spotted and you may well have a point here, Donald Bell actually made this point to me in the letter he sent me back in 1999 with the photo of 303. However, in that letter he says Dick Whittington had them as 303 (AE 1178 - W24) and 304 (Kitson 2084 - M22) but doesn't quote Dick's source. I promptly completely forgot about this and didn't notice 303 had one of the earlier boilers until this week.

On welding, if you believe Wikipedia (we should shouldn't we !!), it was a lot earlier than WW2 .....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welding

The scrapping dates for the SAR 04xx locos are as follows;

0415 - Uitenhage 1/1916
0416 - East London 2/1946
0420 - Uitenhage 9/1914
0421 - Uitenhage 10/1935
0423 - Uitenhage 2/1933

Of the two that went to the OVGS, their low numbers suggest circa 1892, may be originally for construction work. This may date the rebuilds to about that time, which I think were done at Uitenhage Works.

Regards

John

Posted here for reference purposes. André Kritzinger (talk) 17:56, 2 December 2013 (UTC)