Talk:Assyrians/Syriacs in Sweden

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Daniel Boyacioglu[edit]

Sorry, but shouldn't be belong with the entertainers? highlunder 09:21, 20 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It depends how you see it, but I probably would say that he should belong to the entertainers. He's doing some kind of poetry and also singing, but have also done some comedysketches. The TriZ (talk) 15:47, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Arameanism and Assyriansim[edit]

Dbachmann (talk · contribs) are implicating that the Assyrian/Syriacs in Sweden are divided in two groups, Arameanists and Assyrianists. This is however not true, there is Syrianer (Syriacs) and Assyrier (Assyrians). The term "Arameans" in Sweden is not used in a greater extent, it is only used to describe the decendants of the Syriac group, the Arameans. The TriZ (talk) 14:04, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

well, cool, then let us see evidence of the existence of two groups. The Swedish census afaics is aware of one group, which it calls "syrianer/assyrier" because they can't agree on a name. Give us reliable sources confirming the existence of two distinct groups in Sweden, and you'll have my full support here. I simply note that sv-wiki has sv:Kategori:Assyrier/syrianer, but neither sv:Kategori:Syrianer nor sv:Kategori:Assyrier -- exactly in line with my impression that this is a single group with a slash in its official name. (Se Kategori:Assyrien för den antika folkgruppen, och Kategori:Syrier för personer från Syrien. just like our Category:Assyria and Category:Syrian people)--dab (𒁳) 14:14, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh yes, the group in Sweden is seen as one. This is not what I'm talking about.

"The dividing line in Sweden between Aramaenists and Assyrianists lies between the partly religiously defined group: Aramaeanists, who are Syriac Orthodox Christians, and the more politically determined category: Assyrianists, whose members belong to several different Christian beliefs (the majority of whom are also Syriac Orthodox), but whose religious affiliation is toned down.[2]"

Arameanists is not a more religiously defined group, Syriacs are. In Sweden there are Syriacs (Syrianer) and Assyrians (Assyrians), they are by the Swedish governemnt seen as one people, Assyrier/syrianer. The conflict is between the Syriacs and the Assyrians, where all of the Syriacs believe in a Aramean identity. The TriZ (talk) 14:28, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

you keep confusing the actual group with the two ideological factions within the group. Of course a faction is also a "group", but they aren't in any way an ethnic group, they are just a bunch of people happening to share an opinion. The point is that the Arameanist faction calls the entire group "Syrianer", while the Assyrianist faction calls the entire group "Assyrier". The actual group referred to by these two names is one and the same. --dab (𒁳) 15:02, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Swedish word for "Assyrians" is "Assyrier", not "Assyrianer". It is the same as the word in English, "Syrianer" is really "Syrier". But just as the "Syrian" has been changed to "Syriac" to detach from the people of Syria, "Syrier" has been changed to "Syrianer". The TriZ (talk) 15:33, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ok, sorry. --dab (𒁳) 15:53, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Article naming and stupid edit war[edit]

First of all, dbachmann, shame on you for focusing on continually renaming this article rather than cleaning up poor writing and grammatical errors. I did read the article, apparently you never read it thoroughly enough.

Second, it does not matter what the Swedish term for this ethnic group is, on the English Wikipedia. This article should be at Assyrians in Sweden in line with all other similar articles and according to WPMOS. --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 06:08, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

it's stupid, I agree, but it't not currently an edit war. Thanks to about a year's effort I invested in documenting this nonsense and reviewing all possible and impossible angles of WP:NAME. If you have a reasonable suggestion for a rename, let's hear it, but make it very well referenced please. --dab (𒁳) 17:38, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hey. Here's my opinion: the current title doesn't work. Assyrians/Syriacs currently redirects to "Assyrian people", so honestly I think Assyrians in Sweden is the better title. My suggestion is to move the article to that link, and then listing the discussion at WP:RM and getting more people to comment on it. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 04:45, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Throwing in my 2 cents: I think it is time there were separate pages for Assyrians and Syriacs. These are two different identities. Never mind ethnicity -- since that is something impossible to prove either way for ANY ethnic group. Let's stop forcing an identity on people and have separate pages for Assyrians and Syriacs which will explain the situation. There are thousands of people who in no way identify themselves as Assyrians and there's no reason for us to force this identity on them; and the reverse is true: why talk about some combined Assyrian/Syriac people for people who only see themselves as Assyrians? It's the only way 1) to stop warring over pages; 2) to address the situation as it stands (ie separate communities with their own organisations, TV stations, publications, etc); 3) to value identity over genetic ethnicity. Just read the Ethnic group article from wikipedia: "An ethnic group is a group of people whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage that is real or assumed- sharing cultural characteristics This shared heritage may be based upon putative common ancestry, history, kinship, religion, language, shared territory, nationality or physical appearance. Members of an ethnic group are conscious of belonging to an ethnic group; moreover ethnic identity is further marked by the recognition from others of a group's distinctiveness." Ordtoy (talk) 08:53, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
sigh. there are two pages for the two identities. Please read up on the background. The identities are Assyrianism and Arameanism. The problem is that both groups claim the same history, so you cannot meaningfully separate them. Please send me a note the day the Assyrianist and Aramaeanist faction can agree which group gets to claim Ephraim the Syrian as one of their own. The two groups diverge only in the 20th century. Their 20th century history can be traced as two separate stories, mostly marked by fighting with the other group. For any time predating 1900, the group was simply known as "Syrians". --dab (𒁳) 16:41, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sign indeed! But I still think that two separate pages for two separate identities would solve the problem. For Ephrem (and all the others) we can identify them by religion (probably the only identity he had) and note the ethnic claims. The problem I have is that prior to 1900 there were two separate stories too -- people identified by their religious affiliation: Syriac Orthodox/Catholic did not identify as being of the same group/people/whatever as the Nestorians or Chaldeans. The attempt to establish a single ethnic Assyrian identity has had mixed success. Some of the Syriacs accept, many don't so it doesn't make sense to me to force this on Wikipedia pages. But that's just my opinion... Ordtoy (talk) 05:04, 29 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Protected edit request on 2 April 2015[edit]

Hi, (It is my first time to ask for edit request. Hope I am doing it right)

  • 1. I want to re-add the point that was removed under languages: "Neo-Aramaic, Swedish, (some knowledge of Turkish, Arabic, Kurdish and Persian)"
  • 2. To re-add some of the reasons why they left from their areas to Sweden: "Most Assyrians arrived in Sweden due to ethnic and religious conflicts, leaving Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and Syria. The migration to Sweden may be broken up into a number of distinct periods: early settlement and the subsequent waves of migration sparked by the Assyrian genocide in present day Turkey, the Iranian Revolution of 1979 and, more recently, during the 2000s, an unprecedented immigration wave from Iraq reached Sweden as a result of the Iraq War."
  • 3. To correct the mistake: instead of Lebanon, it has to be Iran (the area of northwestern Iran, which is the historical area from where some people came to Sweden).
  • 4. To remove the source for Assyrian Muslims, which is taken from Joshua Project website deemed to be undesirable for use.
  • 5. To re-add all of the churches: Syriac Orthodox Church, Chaldean Catholic Church, Syriac Catholic Church, + the missing two: Assyrian Church of the East, Ancient Church of the East.
  • 6. To re-add the Template:Immigration to Sweden.
  • 6. To re-add the Template:Assyrian communities

Thanks in advance for the help.

MaronitePride (talk) 20:19, 2 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree on most points.
  • Second point: Cyprus dispute should be added, resulted in many Assyrians fleeing Tur Abdin.
  • Third point: Iran could be added, but Lebanon should not be removed. Actually, the first Assyrians in Sweden (or at least the first major group) came from Lebanon in 1967 (April 13 to be more specific). Svante Lundgren mentions this in his book "Assyrierna - från Ninve till Södertälje" (2014) on page 102. Gabriel Afram, being one of these Assyrians, describes the entire trip from Beirut in the first chapter of his book "Inkräktarna - Assyriernas historia i Sverige" (2012), also mentioning the number to be 220 Assyrians. Shmayo (talk) 15:51, 6 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In the same book, on page 99, Lundgren mentions the Cyprus dispute ("Cypernkrisen år 1974"/"Cyprus crisis year 1974" in his words), resulting in increased Turkish persecution against Christians in the country, as a reason for Assyrians to flee Tur Abdin (also mentioning that the Turkey–PKK conflict in the area was another reason). Shmayo (talk) 16:06, 6 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks (for the overall agreement that we have).
Third point: Iran has to be added for sure. (the area of northwestern Iran, which is the historical area from where some people came to Sweden). And if added Lebanon/Cyprus should be mentioned from where in the first place the Assyrian refugees came to Lebanon/Cyprus (as you mentioned the reason for Assyrians to flee Tur Abdin, Turkey was Turkish persecution.) Similarly, many of the Assyrian refugees within Lebanon at that time (1960's) also came from areas within present day Turkey. (Keep in mind most of the Assyrian refugees from that time were not even Lebanese citizens. Birth within Lebanese territory does not gives the right of citizenship, unless the father is Lebanese citizen. Currently, most of the Assyrian refugees are from Iraq, Hasaka area of Syria and some from Iran.) MaronitePride (talk) 18:30, 6 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I did not mean that any Assyrians came from Cyprus, I meant that the Cyprus dispute should be added as reason why they left. As for Lebanon, it wasn't just temporary refugees only. Most fled Seyfo and their children and grandchildren were born in Lebanon; Fares Fares, Josef Fares and Aboud Zazi are examples of Assyrians from Sweden with grandparents or great grandparents who fled to Lebanon during Seyfo. These Assyrians probably came from different countries, not just modern Turkey. Shmayo (talk) 19:39, 6 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Mlpearc (open channel) 19:42, 6 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Protected edit request on 14 April 2015[edit]

User:MaronitePride's number 4 above; removal of some supposed 1100 Muslims under "Religion". Joshua Project claims that there are 1150 Hertevin speakers and that they are Muslims. I can't see what this has do with Assyrians in Sweden? Secondly, they are wrong. Speakers of Hertevin are Chaldean Catholic. Otto Jastrow, who discovered the dialect, writes on page 18 in "Der neuaramäische Dialekt von Hertevin (Provinz Siirt)" (1988): "Dieser dialekt wurde von chaldäischen Christen, den Undergebenen eines Kurdenaghas, in dem Dorf Hertevin, einige Kilometer westlich von Pervari, Provinz Siirt gesprochen." Shmayo (talk) 15:12, 14 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. — {{U|Technical 13}} (e • t • c) 12:12, 15 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Technical 13: Sorry.

  • "Religion: Syriac Orthodox Church, Syriac Catholic Church, Chaldean Catholic Church, and minority Islam (1,100)"

to

  • "Religion: Syriac Orthodox Church, Syriac Catholic Church, Chaldean Catholic Church and Assyrian Church of the East"

Shmayo (talk) 18:48, 15 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

 Done — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:39, 27 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Protected edit request on 1 July 2015[edit]

add this template

Kiwi (talk) 19:54, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Done — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 08:49, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Protected edit request on 2 August 2016[edit]

This is a double redirect.


5.169.165.37 (talk) 07:28, 2 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Done.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 07:41, 2 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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