Talk:Armenian diaspora

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment[edit]

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 31 August 2021 and 15 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jesskasparian.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 14:43, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Split request[edit]

I have now split off the section "Armenians per country" into a standalone article - List of Armenian populations by country. It will need to be checked and cleaned up. SilkTork *YES! 00:12, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Greaters"[edit]

In this article, it says: "Armenian communities already existed outside of Greaters of the Sassanid Empire, and also to defend eastern and northern borders of the Byzantine Empire."

"Greaters" makes no sense in this context. I assume the author means that outside of Greater Armenia, diasporic Armenian communities emerged in the Sassanid and Persian empires, which is correct. Minas1913 (talk) 14:44, 29 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Seeing no response after nearly a week, I'll follow up on this. - Jmabel | Talk 15:36, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Armenian communities[edit]

Propose merging Largest Armenian communities outside of Armenia here. Essentially the same topic and not abnormally big to justify split. Brandmeistertalk 16:26, 1 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Largest Armenian communities outside of Armenia was created by me as a list of cities and urban areas with big Armenian population. Armenian diaspora article is about the history of Armenian communities. I don't see any reason why you should merge this these two. --Yerevanci (talk) 16:56, 1 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed merge with White Genocide[edit]

Following an AfD discussion about White Genocide, there seems to be a consensus to merge that content into Armenian diaspora. Chris Troutman (talk) 02:12, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support the merge, although it's unclear if there was consensus for that at AFD. Andrew327 02:53, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There was no clear consensus. Some users voted to keep it, while others said we should merge it with Armenian diaspora, other said with Armenian Genocide. --Երևանցի talk 03:14, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The concept does not seem to exist outside of the Armenian diaspora context. In addition, there do not appear to be any notable cases that could be described by the term or any related events. As of yet, there is not much hope for the article to expand. Parishan (talk) 20:56, 3 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Western Armenia[edit]

I am Turkish. I don't hate Armenians. Because I'm not racist. But what is the source of this term?? Armenian people bring up their nationalistic ideas into these words. They are smart. Many Wikipedia articles back-up their nationalistic future plans. Six vilayets is better term. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.248.55.40 (talk) 14:57, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how it's "nationalistic". What is today known as eastern Turkey has been called Armenia for over 2,000 years. Before the Armenian Genocide, the Armenian-populated lands of the Ottoman Empire and the Russian Empire were known as "Armenia" (see Armenian Highlands), although there was no independent Armenia at the time. "Western Armenia" is a term to refer to the lands where Armenians lived for over 2,000 years until the Armenian Genocide. "Six vilayets" does not equal "Western Armenia". Six vilayets were the six Ottoman provinces where Armenians made up majority or a significant portion of their population. There is no Ottoman Empire nowadays, however, Armenians continue to consider eastern Turkey as part of their historic homeland. --Երևանցի talk 05:46, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Most recent edits[edit]

Given this article's rather brief portion on the history of the Armenian Diaspora and its seemingly disproportionate emphasis (in terms of citations) on estimated population figures, I cut down this article by about 15,000 kilobytes and reduced the number of citations from about 190 to 140. There are several reasons for this. The estimated population figures are meant to be current, and yet there are figures cited from a book (Ayvazyan, Հայ Սփյուռք հանրագիտարան) published more than ten years ago to substantiate 2014 figures. This in and of itself would not be so problematic if population data are hard to come by in certain countries (e.g. South Africa, Thailand, etc.) but in face of more recent and specialized sources that are closer to the subject matter, it would be better to exclude it. Further, we do not know what sources Ayvazyan is working with (although I would assume he would be citing official data and available books and articles) so in this case his figures may be no different than the census data.

Some sources are also inappropriate. For example, one source (Thon, Caroline (2012). Armenians in Hamburg) was being used to substantiate the estimated population of communities outside the author's general purview, in this case Germany. She may be a reliable author but when it comes to citing the size of a population in Istanbul or Sydney, then it would be better to find information from authors who specialize in those regions. Just because an author may offhandedly say that x's population is x does not mean automatically mean we have to consider it as yet another reliable that must be mentioned and included. There were other facts mentioned in Armenian-language sources and the editor who added them also added long block quotes in the endnotes, which, again, isn't wrong, but in light of this article's size, is unnecessary since it seems like an uncontroversial fact. If something is well known, it is not necessary to add half a dozen references; one or two will suffice. Those who may be interested in investigating those sources will be able to visit those sites and read the material for themselves.

The population section needs to be trimmed down further and the history section is in especially wanting of expansion. I will try to work on this article as my time permits.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 17:45, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Recent dispute[edit]

"while the number of Armenians in the rest of Azerbaijan is a highly politicized issue. Anecdotally the figure of 30,000 is often cited, though this is almost certainly an exaggeration. " Minority Rights Group [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Steverci (talk • contribs) 23:25, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No. I won't accept minorityrights.org as a reliable source for anything but their own opinion. I caution you to avoid edit-warring and gain consensus. I've returned to status quo ante until this is resolved. Do you have a specific problem with the sources (University of Maryland Center for International Development and Conflict Management, European Commission Against Racism and Intolerance) that you keep removing? Chris Troutman (talk) 23:44, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The European Commission source is thirteen years old, for one thing, and an Armenian living in Azerbaijan hasn't gotten any less suicidal since. And while the Maryland Center is a newer source, the student writing it cited a census from 1998 when the year had fairly recently ended. Actually read the Armenians in Azerbaijan article, of the less than 1,000 many are in hiding. The "30,000" is rhetoric made by Azeri politicians to seem more tolerant than Armenia, but no neutral source supports it. --Steverci (talk) 03:00, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
So now we get to the heart of the matter. You ascribe political machinations to what the number of Armenians in Azerbaijan is. I don't. I just want the best-cited figure. While your source is newer it's also not reliable. We can't be changing numbers because it makes someone uncomfortable. I'd rather stick with an older number that doesn't come packed with political baggage. If you can't edit neutrally in this subject then you should avoid it altogether. Chris Troutman (talk) 03:19, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thomas de Waal gives (Black Garden, New York, 2003, pp. 102-03) the figure as ranging from 5,000 to 20,000 at the time of his writing, almost all of whom were Armenian women married to Azeris.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 05:28, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
At the very list it should be noted that a)There is no Armenian community in Azerbaijan. b)All remaining people of Armenian heriatge are part of mixed families. Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 11:13, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Chris, there is a pretty clear consensus that 30,000 is not the best cited figure. Do you still object to it? --Steverci (talk) 02:49, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There isn't clear consensus and I do object. If there's a citation from Black Garden: Armenia and Azerbaijan Through Peace and War or other reliable sources I don't mind them replacing what's currently there. I don't care if the number of Armenians is exactly zero. I simply refuse to have cited content removed because it ruffles feathers. Chris Troutman (talk) 13:56, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
What is wrong with the Minority Rights Organization? --Steverci (talk) 00:04, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It not a reliable source. The very name of the organization fails WP:NPOV. Chris Troutman (talk) 00:57, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have been looking for a news article I read some time ago since this dispute and I finally found it. Please give that a read and tell me if you still believe there are 20,000-30,000 Armenians there. --Steverci (talk) 02:35, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ugh. I don't why you misunderstand. I don't know how many Armenians live there and I don't care. I don't think the Center for Armenian Remembrance is a reliable source either. My argument has been that the sources cited that happen to give 20-30,000 seem reasonable to me. If those sources said there were only 12 Armenians then I'd support 12. I'm only looking at the sources. I don't know what the correct number is and I doubt it really matters. I'm not familiar with the Russian-language "Population and Society" newsletter that's also cited. It gives a much lower number. Black Garden seems like a reasonable source; use that. You seem to be looking for any source that provides the number you want to see. I don't care what the number is, I just want responsible references. If you want to change it, go ahead. Chris Troutman (talk) 02:57, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Never mind, I found the page for 5,000, page 104. If you don't mind, I'll be changing it now. --Steverci (talk) 18:17, 18 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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British of part Armenian origin?[edit]

A video on YouTube shows the oldest British chronicle mentions the origin of the first peoples of Britain are from Armenia. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60f4Fz1fYxI 98.150.68.110 (talk) 17:00, 31 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Broken citation and genocide denial[edit]

In the introduction, the claim that “the modern Armenian diaspora was largely formed[...] when the Armenians living in their homeland rioted against Ottoman Empire with support of the Russian Empire and displaced to various places. These brutal riots resulted in many civilian casualties for people of the area since the Muslim male population of Ottoman Empire was enlisted to the army while Armenian males did not,” is a mixture of subjective opinions and disputed accounts that blame the Armenians for their expulsion while using passive language to elide the actions of the Ottoman government. The citation link is broken. Kgdescant (talk) 05:12, 9 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

God spawned 11 million armenian diaspora to all around to world, or Turks exiled them. First one is better right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.190.14.54 (talk) 21:00, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Diaspora Statistics In Twentieth Century[edit]

I would like to propose some new information to be added to this Wikipedia page from the sourceGlobal Diasporas: an Introduction by Robin Cohen. I would be adding some statistics from my secondary source about the number of Armenians living abroad after the Genocide by the beginning of the twentieth century. Altogether my addition would be around 100 words. If anyone wants to comment on these changes, please let me know on this Talk Page or on my Talk Page.Vanessa1290 (talk) 16:41, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Reason for Migration[edit]

I would like to edit the section in which the author(s) of this Wikipedia page stated that the main cause of migration was the genocide. Although, because of the genocide a huge migration occurred, Armenians were migrating way before it as well. In fact, more than sixty-five thousand Armenians migrated to the United States between the years 1885 and 1915. Contrary to what the Wiki page stated, Gutman, the author of my source, wrote that at least half of Armenians who migrated to North America, left between the years of 1888 and 1908, which was before the Armenian Genocide occurred[1]. I would like to add about 3 sentences to this section to give the readers a better scope on Armenian migration prior to the genocide. My secondary source is reliable because it was published in 2019 by the Edinburgh University Press. If anyone else has more information or wants to add more to this section please feel free to contact me on my talk page! Jesskasparian (talk) 19:42, 30 November 2021 (UTC)Jesskasparian[reply]

Hi,
Where do you see in the article that "the main cause of migration was the genocide"? According to the article (and to reliable sources): "Since antiquity, Armenians have established communities in many regions throughout the world. However, the modern Armenian diaspora was largely formed as a result of World War I, when the Armenian genocide committed by the Ottoman Empire forced Armenians living in their homeland to flee or risk being killed.[1][2] Another wave of emigration started with the dissolution of the Soviet Union."
This is totally in line with what you wrote ("Although, because of the genocide a huge migration occurred, Armenians were migrating way before it as well.") A455bcd9 (talk) 23:05, 30 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Gutman, David (2019). The politics of Armenian migration to North America, 1885-1915 : sojourners, smugglers and dubious citizens. Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press. ISBN 9781474445245.
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