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Archive 1

List of Supporting Countries

Please add a list of countries and organisations supporting South Africa's case at ICJ. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.70.80.51 (talk) 23:46, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Request to add Masha Gessen's comments

Masha Gessen, when asked if what is happening in Gaza is a genocide stated, "I think there are some fine distinctions between genocide and ethnic cleansing and I think that there are valid arguments for using both terms". When pressed further they stated, "it is at the very least ethnic cleansing". This was followed soon after controversy surrounding Gessen's receival of the Hannah Arendt Prize over remarks in a New Yorker Article critical of Israeli actions in the strip wherein Gessen compared them to an Eastern European Ghetto "being liquidated" by the Nazis. Nandofan (talk) 03:02, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Nandofan, added, though in the 'cultural discourse' section since she has no claim to being a legal or similar scholar. Pincrete (talk) 11:24, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
That makes sense. Thank you Nandofan (talk) 19:42, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
@Pincrete thanks, @Nandofan sorry, I should have checked other replies first. Irtapil (talk) 06:12, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
@Pincrete *they
Irtapil (talk) 06:13, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
@Nandofan If you're able to edit the article then I agree that's relevant and endorse you adding it, but it needs a reference.
If you're not able to edit the article, can you suggest where that fits and give a link to a citation we can use please?
Irtapil (talk) 06:10, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
Just saw someone already done. Irtapil (talk) 06:13, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

First sentence of background is awkward

First sentence of background reads very strangely, "Background - After Israel began the bombing of Gaza following the 7 October attacks, some Palestinians immediately expressed concern that this violence would be used to justify genocide against Palestinians by Israel."
But I'm stumped on how to fix it. Can a better writer than I am please have a go at turning it into something cohesive?
It looks like multiple people have added three opinionated words each? All of the points there probably should be included, but connected better and with a more even tone.
Irtapil (talk) 06:07, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
Flaws seem to be that it isn't only Palestinians, it isn't now only concerns about what would happen, it's about deeds rather than only about justification. Pincrete (talk) 07:20, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
I've tried to fix, I don't know whether this works for others. Pincrete (talk) 07:40, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

"Gaza genocide" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Gaza genocide has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 January 17 § Gaza genocide until a consensus is reached. The sum of all human knowledge (talk) 13:33, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

January 2024

I propose that we split this article into like 10 articles more. Clearly we haven't created enough content forks out of this war, how about we divide it by months or cities or something? I'm sure it will serve for, well, something probably.

This article is at least much, much more serious and realistic than Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel. But we have Palestinian genocide accusation already. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 16:28, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

@Super Dromaeosaurus: Redirecting to Palestinian genocide accusation has already been tried by Parham wiki and was reverted by Vinegarymass911 with the comments that these two articles are "... not the same thing and this should not be merged without a discussion". Also, while article titles should be precise, advice also exists that precise language should not date quickly. Now it is January 2024, I also have to wonder at the wisdom of including the year in the article title. The current conflict in Gaza does not look like being over any time soon, so a change in title is probably warranted. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 00:06, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
I think we should merge this and the (currently somewhat shambolic) Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel into a neutral Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israel–Hamas war (or whatever the main article ends up getting moved to). Keeping two separate articles is a recipe for POV forking based on original research and synthesis, rather than a collaborative effort to summarize, with due weighting, what reliable sources say - which is what we're supposed to be doing here. PrimaPrime (talk) 10:15, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
I agree. To me the current situation just seems like a WP:FALSEBALANCE situation, editors creating certain articles and other editors creating their equivalent of the other side as a reaction. Though if it was up to me I'd completely delete the genocide by Hamas one and merge this one into the general one for a Palestinian genocide, which is an article in a much better shape and standing. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 11:46, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
I'm not sure if there is much in common between the two articles to merit a merger? VR talk 06:19, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
There is, quite obviously in my view, much in common between the two. They're the same article but about the opposite side in the same war. And both are alleged genocides. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 15:14, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
Can you explain what is in common? In other words, wouldn't that article just consist of two sections: "allegations against Israel", and "allegations against Hamas". VR talk 20:46, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
At least that would provide some balance. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 20:55, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
WP:FALSEBALANCE. WillowCity(talk) 23:54, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
I also cannot see what is in common, nor what balance. Hamas is certainly accused of having genocidal intent towards Israel, but I have heard of no one who thinks that October 7 - however indiscriminate and bloody it was - was a realistic attempt to eliminate Israel or the Israeli people. Pincrete (talk) 10:47, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
International law references "genocidal acts" in discussions of genocide. Essentially, genocidal intent + violent action to pursue that intent = genocidal act. Hamas has absolutely been accused of genocidal acts re 7 October. It's why the genocide conventions say "in whole or in part". But that's hardly germane to this discussion. Jbbdude (talk) 02:28, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
It would only be false balance if the two sides were presented perfectly equally rather than in proportion to the weight they are given in reliable sources. I imagine we could have a shorter section about accusations of genocide against Hamas re: October 7, followed by a longer section about accusations of genocide against Israel in the ensuing war. PrimaPrime (talk) 07:28, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Civilian attack infobox

The article has acquired a civilian attack infobox. It is much less muddled, PoV and synthy than that of the related 'historic' article infobox. Still, is this apt for an article about accusations? Pincrete (talk) 06:51, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

I would say not. PrimaPrime (talk) 07:31, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
Considering various other genocide accusation articles, including specifically in contexts of war, also use the same infobox for a brief summary, it would seem to be the best one we have until a specific one is created, and would be in line to how we treat other articles of a similar nature. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 13:45, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
This is less synthy than the related infobox, but how do you decide what are the motives for an allegation? Who says that the motives are Anti-Palestinianism or Settler colonialism? Finally, where in the article are these motives expounded?Pincrete (talk) 10:40, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
It may be better to leave that section blank until we have more comprehensive sources that state the alleged motives. Though for a the three motives listed, on the first that is easy to cite to the statements of Israeli officials on declaring war against Hamas and Gaza. The second you could cite to previous statements in recent years from government officials and politicians, such as declaring Palestine and Palestinians do not exist, alongside statements that declare the West Bank and Gaza as Israeli territory, and the dehumanising language used against Palestinians both before October 2023 and since. For the third point, you'd cite it to such papers as:
  • Wolfe, Patrick (21 December 2006). "Settler colonialism and the elimination of the native". Journal of Genocide Research. 8 (4): 387–409. doi:10.1080/14623520601056240.
  • Rashed, Haifa; Short, Damien (2012). "Genocide and settler colonialism: can a Lemkin-inspired genocide perspective aid our understanding of the Palestinian situation?". The International Journal of Human Rights. 16 (8): 1142–1169. doi:10.1080/13642987.2012.735494. S2CID 145422458.
  • Shaw, Martin (2013). "Palestine and Genocide: An International Historical Perspective Revisited". Holy Land Studies. 12 (1): 1–7. doi:10.3366/hls.2013.0056.
You could also cite it to any of the news pieces written which cover the treatment of Palestinians in the Palestinian territories by Israeli settlers. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 18:35, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

"We will eliminate everything"

This is a mistranslation and misinformation. The actual quote is Gaza will not return to what it was before. There will be no Hamas. We will eliminate it all. [1] --Hob Gadling (talk) 11:30, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

I've modified so as to report the initial quote - and its correction rather than simply linking to an article saying "the quote was wrong".Pincrete (talk) 10:35, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
That is NYT correction (ie they reviewed the thing again) of their initial report so they believe it to be "everything". Selfstudier (talk) 11:13, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Suggested edit: Main article link for Defense for Children International-Palestine et al v. Biden et al

After the heading === Center for Constitutional Rights lawsuit ===

I request that a link to the main article for this lawsuit be inserted on the line immediately following that heading.

Main article: Defense for Children International-Palestine et al v. Biden et al

Lovelano (talk) 07:43, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done, thanks. — kashmīrī TALK 10:16, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Link to Channel 14

Channel 14 is mentioned twice in the article. It is not clear what / who this channel is. It would be better to make the first reference a link to the Wikipedia article about Channel 14. 86.139.218.163 (talk) 13:42, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done, thanks. — Pincrete (talk) 13:54, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Edit request 13 February 2024

Description of suggested change: Please add a wikilink for "Genocidal intent" to the phrase "intent to destroy" in the first paragraph, so that it reads [[Genocidal intent|intent to destroy]].

Diff:

−
ORIGINAL_TEXT
+
CHANGED_TEXT

188.176.174.30 (talk) 10:36, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done — kashmīrī TALK 11:11, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
Thank you. 188.176.174.30 (talk) 11:40, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Rhetoric from politicians in the United States

What does this section have to do with anything? Ron DeSantis and other American wingnuts don't speak for the Israeli government, they aren't proof of genocidal intent. jftsang 13:03, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Well, to be fair, as far as I am aware, the Israeli government is extremely closely allied in major policy issues with the politicians of both the main U.S. parties. [2] [3] David A (talk) 14:49, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
It is, but then again people like RDS aren't actually in charge of American foreign or military affairs, so it's hard to see how that applies. If it were Biden, that'd be different. jftsang 10:41, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
I agree. We don't need to quote every nut who decides to comment about the Middle East situation, especially if it concerns legal aspects. Just because someone was shown on Fox News or CNN doesn't mean it must go into an encyclopaedia. — kashmīrī TALK 10:56, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
I've removed the section, as no reason was presented why the internal electoral rhetoric in the US should be given prominence in the section about legal aspects of Israeli actions. — kashmīrī TALK 11:05, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
Okay. Never mind then. David A (talk) 15:04, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
Should the information be moved to the following page instead? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war David A (talk) 16:18, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
Indeed, looks like a good target. — kashmīrī TALK 16:30, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
Okay. Would you be willing to handle it, or should we wait for more confirmations first? David A (talk) 16:38, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
Maybe someone else could do it... I somehow don't find it rewarding to spend my time on DeSantis's speeches. Sorry! — kashmīrī TALK 17:25, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
The point is it was deemed prevalent and noteworthy enough to include in the article Palestinian genocide accusation, where the "Rhetoric" section is all bar 1 (small) paragraph is about the 2023-2024 conflict. As that article is meant to cover the broader and full history of the genocide accusation, the commentary on politicians complicity and also inciting genocide is better suited being in this article. And, a single day for a "discussion" to be decided, especially on hot articles like this seems a bit premature, to say the least. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:30, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
I do not personally mind if the section in question is returned, but what do you think about my suggestion above? David A (talk) 19:09, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
That could work, then reduce the text in the two genocide accusation pages done to a brief overview, while linking to the relevant section of United States support for Israel in the Israel–Hamas war. I do believe it's unwieldly for the genocide accusation articles in it's current state, and this is after I've already been through and condensed the text from it's previous even-more expansive state. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 21:35, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
@Kashmiri and Jftsang: Would that solution be acceptable for you? David A (talk) 06:20, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
It seems like the other, more on-topic, page organises such comments more concisely and in chronological order though, so that format likely needs to be adhered to there. David A (talk) 06:24, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Recent edits that detract from the point of this particular page

Hello.

These linked edits by a very recently approved extended confirmed rights editor seem to distort the context of this particular page into prioritising the crimes of Hamas over the statistically enormously greater crimes of the state of Israel, which are the entire point of this page, and the initial crimes of Hamas have already been more throroughly dealt with in the "Israel–Hamas war" page that was already linked to at the start of this page.

As such, I would much prefer if we revert this page to how it was organised previously. David A (talk) 09:01, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Very much agreed. I agree that they distortionary and essentially biased obfuscation. Even if others do not agree, the edits do remain entirely tangential at the very best and have no place in the lead. FJDEACKB (talk) 12:44, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
I think that it is probably fine to revert those edits then. David A (talk) 20:10, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
Totally agree. Pincrete (talk) 06:34, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
I added a redirect to this website from the Aaron Bushnell section of political self immolations. I think it provides readers with the most appropriate context and it's an abundant site ZeanIkLaurie (talk) 06:11, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Add United States to accused list

The United States and Joe Biden are frequently accused of complicitly or outright participation in the genocide and South Africa has considered opening a case against them. Should they be added to the accused list? Bill3602 (talk) 21:03, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Looking through the infoboxes for all the other genocides/accusations, there's not a perfect match for having those accused of complicity in the infobox. The closest is Allegations of genocide of Ukrainians in the Russian invasion of Ukraine with Belarus, but there Belarus is actively engaged in what can be labelled an act of genocide (forcible transfer of children), so while I have no problem personally adding the US to the accused, convincing others it fits in that section of the infobox may be more difficult. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 00:17, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
The inclusion of Belarus in the infobox there is sourced to a tweet. The body also mentions a Yale report, although the report doesn't make genocide claims. For now, my understanding is that children were transferred away from the battlefield as is the normal practice in such circumstances (see e.g. Evacuations of children in Germany during World War II, Evacuations of civilians in Britain during World War II, Evacuations of civilians in Japan during World War II). — kashmīrī TALK 15:33, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

The statistical support among the population of Israel for preventing all transfer of humanitarian aid to Gaza

The following public opinion poll by the Israel Democracy Institute reveals that 68% of the population of Israel supports preventing all international transfer of humanitarian aid to the population of Gaza. That information seems extremely noteworthy to include in this page.

https://en.idi.org.il/articles/52976

https://mondoweiss.net/2024/02/over-2-3-of-jewish-israelis-oppose-humanitarian-aid-to-palestinians-starving-in-gaza/

David A (talk) 17:51, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

There's also Human Rights Watch accusing Israel of blocking aid, as well as for about the past month Israeli civilians have been blocking aid from entering Gaza. While this can be evidence towards "Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part", we'd really need a source to link these opinions and actions to genocide for a solid citation. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 00:25, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
Well, the issue here as I perceive it is that if 68% of the population of Israel actively wants all of the 2.3 million Palestinians to starve to death, that also puts significant pressure on their government to act out that desire, and makes that part of the Israeli population at least partially complicit in the genocide that is currently occurring, so it seems important to mention somewhere in the Wikipedia pages covering this horrible situation. David A (talk) 04:42, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
57% maintain the bombing so far is not sufficient and has to be increased, another 35% think that the IDF's bombing volume is more or less adequate. The problem with these things, as with all polls, is that Israeli analysts of their country's war reportage conclude that very little of the realities on the ground in Gaza is covered. Complicity implies full awareness. Civilians rarely grasp in any depth the full scale of what their representatives do, ostensibly in their name. Of course in a digital age, all we see is accessible in Israel, but but ultimately the focus should be on those who plan, and execute these operations, otherwise one falls into the same error Israeli leaders themselves make, of confounding all people under Hamas rule as responsible for whatever has been done by Hamas. Collective guilt is a very dangerous concept.Nishidani (talk) 05:02, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
That is a good point. David A (talk) 06:15, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
With Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International's statements on the matter, I've added a section, also detailing the survey. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 18:32, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Rationale for name change

The absolutely abhorrent actions taken by the IDF, as well as the clear genocidal intent expressed by Israeli cabinet ministers, are CLEAR justification for the name change. To displace millions of people, to tell them to move to specific zones, only to then indiscriminately bombard those zones. To bomb hospitals, schools, areas known to only be home to civilians. To murder thousands of children. The news today of Israel murdering civilians who were gathering aid. There are hundreds, perhaps thousands, of stories which justify this name change.

We must, of course, not let emotion dictate edits on Wikipedia, but this entire genocidal campaign by Israel is beyond disgusting. Any person who still defends these actions is completely morally bankrupt, and it is astonishing to learn of how many deplorable people are amongst us in this world.

There is no other word for what Israel is doing besides genocide. Given other examples on the list of genocides, it is again astonishing that this "conflict" is not included.

I am sickened. Everyone should be sickened. We cannot continue to endorse Israeli lies on Wikipedia, and cannot continue to peddle the narrative that Israel hold some kind of moral superiority in this situation. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 18:27, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

@Davidlofgren1996: Look, I agree with you that what Israel is doing in Gaza right now likely amounts to genocide, but considering how contentious this topic is and the arbitration remedy associated with it, I really don't think it's a good idea to change the name without consensus. I'm not going to revert it because frankly I just don't feel like going through the motions to sort this out and get consensus one way or the other, but I would advise you notify relevant Wikiprojects and editors of articles relevant to this topic via the respective talk pages of the Wikiprojects and articles. Arctic Circle System (talk) 20:53, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
@Davidlofgren1996: I've reverted your move. C'mon now, use your head. Your move changes it from "allegations" to "attempted", a move that would obviously be controversial. We don't "be bold" for controversial moves, we start RM discussions (WP:PCM). Hey man im josh (talk) 21:02, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
It's not really controversial to anyone with eyes. But fine, RM it is, so we can be reminded of how many disgusting people exist on this website. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 21:05, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
@Davidlofgren1996: Stating that the nature of that move is not controversial makes me question whether you should be moving pages at all. Take the sensationalism and "feelings" aspect out of your comments when discussing contentious topics, it's a recipe for disaster and only serves to inflame the discussions. Hey man im josh (talk) 21:11, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
Is it really apposite to call other editors ‘disgusting’? Docentation (talk) 20:17, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
Just drop it. ―Howard • 🌽33 20:20, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
Please do not make such an obviously controversial decision without even bothering to consult other editors first. We must first build consensus before moving the article like this. Unilateral edits like these are only going to intensify the argument drastically, and I doubt it's going to stay up before an admin reverts it and blocks you from editing the page for a while. – Howard🌽33 21:08, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Read this before voting

This requested move has no reason being implemented in *this* article. This article is not primarily concerned with covering the ongoing humanitarian crisis in Gaza, which has been considered genocide by majority (but not unanimously) of RS. This article is for documenting the initial background, allegations, evidence, trials, academic, legal, and cultural discourse; and the positions of various organisations and people regarding the genocide designation. It would make no sense in either case to move this article to the proposed name. I am asking everyone to oppose the current proposal, but I am also asking for a move proposal to be re-opened in Humanitarian crisis in Gaza. That article has a better case for being renamed. If the proposal here does pass, it will inevitably be reverted after another long discussion. Let us all please avoid the hassle of that discussion and reject it here and now. – Howard🌽33 15:57, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Gaza genocide redirects to this page, and I think that it would likely be confusing with two different Wikipedia pages with almost the same titles covering similar subject matter, but I am not certain regarding the issue. David A (talk) 16:34, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
I'd personally prefer if Gaza genocide redirected to the article on the humanitarian crisis, but changing the redirect is impossible right now without starting a new discussion. – Howard🌽33 17:09, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
This current article should either be redirected to something like "Gaza genocide question" (if no consensus is reached on if it's a genocide) or "Recognition of the Gaza genocide" (if there is consensus). – Howard🌽33 17:14, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
I beg to disagree – to me, a humanitarian crisis is something fundamentally different from a genocide. The two phenomena may sometimes (!) coexist, but they belong to two different realms. Genocide is a legal term, and articles on genocides will focus on the perpetrator's actions insofar as they run afoul of the Genocide Convention. On the other hand, articles describing humanitarian crises will focus on the deprivation and violations of various rights under various international treaties, and frequently just on the suffering. They are two entirely different perspectives. Additionally, the other article sees almost no participation on Talk...
I encourage editors who are familiar with the nuances of genocide to !vote here. — kashmīrī TALK 00:18, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
Very good points. I agree. David A (talk) 06:09, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
Allegations of genocide and genocide are still two separate things. Also, a genocide is fundamentally a humanitarian crisis. One that is specifically perpetrated, and is recognised to be one under international law. We don't have two separate articles on The Holocaust and the Jewish humanitarian crisis. It makes no sense to have two separate articles documenting the history of the same thing. – Howard🌽33 06:46, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
It's because there was no "Jewish humanitarian crisis". There were Jewish ghettos in some countries which may or may not have suffered humanitarian crises. Yet, Holocaust extended beyond these ghettos, and killings included Jewish villages and towns that otherwise faced no other issues. Similarly, there's no humanitarian crisis in Xinjiang, yet many analysts talk about Uyghur genocide. Similarly, the Armenian genocide was not linked to a humanitarian crisis; it was an ordinary mass murder. See the difference? Here in Gaza, we have a humanitarian catastrophe AND we have genocide as the catastrophe is manmade and deliberate, and so we tackle these two aspects in separate articles. — kashmīrī TALK 10:17, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
what's your definition of humanitarian crisis exactly? don't all genocides count as humanitarian crises? – Howard🌽33 12:34, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
I don't think they do. See e.g. German atrocities committed against Soviet prisoners of war, which counts as genocide but was not linked to a humanitarian crisis. — kashmīrī TALK 13:46, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
What's your definition of humanitarian crisis? I'm struggling to understand how an event can be considered a genocide but not a humanitarian crisis. – Howard🌽33 14:00, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
The definition that's closest to my understanding is the one from UNICEF:

A humanitarian crisis is defined as any circumstance where humanitarian needs are sufficiently large and complex to require significant external assistance and resources, and where a multi-sectoral response is needed, with the engagement of a wide range of international humanitarian actors.[4]

Here, the humanitarian crisis is defined by the breadth and depth of population's needs.
I also like the Maltesers' definition, which is based on access to resources necessary for survival:

A humanitarian crisis is usually referred to when one or more events deprive the population or parts of the population of a country of basic subsistence conditions such as access to water, food, shelter, medical care and education, and threaten the long-term health and security of the population.[5]

It follows that, say, imprisoning members of an ethnic minority (as in Xinjiang) or banning their language, or trying to erase their ethnic identity through administrative measures (as in Sinicization of Tibet) even if falling under the Genocide Convention, will not in itself constitute a humanitarian crisis requiring an international multi-agency response – sufficient will be a local political will. Similarly, deportation of the Crimean Tatars, often considered a genocide, wasn't accompanies by a humanitarian crisis (even if certain humanitarian needs of the resettled population could be identified). I hope I was able to show the difference in my understanding of a genocide and a humanitarian crisis. — kashmīrī TALK 21:25, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
"sufficient will be a local political will"
If the perpetrator of the genocide is able to stop it, but repeatedly refuses to do so (possibly requiring an external humanitarian intervention), does that count as a humanitarian crisis? – Howard🌽33 21:38, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
External humanitarian intervention is not there to prevent genocide but to alleviate its effects. To prevent genocide, a political intervention is normally needed. — kashmīrī TALK 18:53, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
Your reasoning does make sense, although the definitions you've provided me are a bit vague and could include genocide. Although, to be fair, I haven't actually seen "genocide" described as a form of humanitarian crisis in the sources I've read. Even if you are correct in this regard, it still doesn't justify the moving of this article. Perhaps we could create yet another article titled "Gaza genocide" which is separate from this article and the article on the humanitarian crisis, since all three seem to be covering different subjects. If you are determined to make that happen, perhaps go to WP:AFC and provide your reasoning there. ―Howard • 🌽33 19:08, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
What do you mean there was no Jewish humanitarian crisis? The Holocaust was the Jewish humanitarian crisis, just as the current Gaza genocide is the Gaza humanitarian crisis. Dylanvt (talk) 23:07, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
@Dylanvt WW2 abounded in humanitarian crises, but there was no single "Jewish humanitarian crisis". There were humanitarian crises in individual occupied countries, cities, ghettoes, etc., and they usually affected people irrespective of nationality or ethnicity (except for Germans of course). — kashmīrī TALK 05:43, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Disputed articles

I have seen confusion about certain New York Times articles being removed from this article due to them being disputed. Because the NYT is generally considered to be reliable, this may be confusing to editors. Therefore, it would be helpful to detail which articles are disputed along with the conversations establishing consensus on that fact.

So, I'll post the one I'm familiar with. Anyone else may add to this list. Additionally we may want to move this to the top of the Talk page so it doesn't get archived:

Mokadoshi (talk) 02:01, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't see any consensus in that discussion that the NYT (or even the article in question) is unreliable or "debunked". If it turns out to be sloppy journalism I expect we'll see a correction/retraction. Until such a consensus emerges, the NYT should be presumed reliable per its long-standing reputation for good reporting and editorial review, see WP:NYT. Irrespective of this, I don't see why that specific article (which focuses on allegations of rape, and doesn't mention genocide) would be relevant to this article (on alleged genocide). Jr8825 • Talk 04:34, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
Disagree. We have a guideline for that in WP:NEWSORG: Whether a specific news story is reliable for a fact or statement should be examined on a case-by-case basis. There are serious doubts regarding Schwartz's article, and I understand there's a consensus not to use that news piece. — kashmīrī TALK 10:21, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
@Jr8825 we have recently had editors who think it is relevant to detail extensively every crime Hamas commited on October 7 for the Background section of this article. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 11:09, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
I saw multiple comments suggesting that the article is problematic. I agree that the discussion was asking for NYT to be declared "unreliable" which is not appropriate here, but it is more than appropriate to make a case-by-case decision as multiple people recommended doing in that discussion. And there may very well be more discussions elsewhere about this article, I just don't have them handy.
I agree with you that this reference wouldn't be relevant to this article in the first place, but unfortunately people continually try to put it in there, and when those get reverted, they get upset because they believe it's impossible for their NYT reference to not be accepted. I'm only suggesting that, when reverting, we say "this doesn't belong here" and "please see this discussion about the source you used." Mokadoshi (talk) 22:35, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

6 March: South Africa files an urgent application to the ICJ for new provisional measures

See here:

Could someone with a good grasp of law summarise these developments? — kashmīrī TALK 11:38, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

We should probably just wait for more secondary sources; we should have more than enough in a few hours. BilledMammal (talk) 11:42, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
BilledMammal (talk) 11:51, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
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